November 9, 2004 - Twin Galaxies Intergalactic Scoreboard
"Steve Wiebe" Controversy
PART II
Steve Wiebe Donkey Kong Score
1,006,600 on July 4, 2004
Not Accepted
"Steve Wiebe" Controversy
PART II
Steve Wiebe Donkey Kong Score
1,006,600 on July 4, 2004
Not Accepted
The only score that was performed on a Double Donkey Kong board was the first one of 947,200. The Second legitimate Donkey Kong Board said to be compromised because it left Steve Wiebe's possession, so the Donkey Kong Board is now invalid, or Tainted Evidence!
Steve Wiebe states, "I accepted the invitation for Robert T Mruczek to come out. I figure I've got nothing to lose." "Robert T Mruczek said that he will bring a board with him and leave it with me as a gift (this is on the Twin Galaxies General Discussion Forum)." This page to explore these Twin Galaxy accusations. For Entertainment Use Only and is Third Party Opinion, Please speak directly with those involved for the actual facts. Breaking News: Friday, March 23, 2007 Steve Wiebe 1,049,100 score on Donkey Kong has just been approved by Twin Galaxies and Steve Wiebe is now the official Donkey Kong Champion. Link
---------------------------------There seems to be a lot of jealousy here. Anyway, I was also aware of Billy's 1,000,000 point game. After inquiring why there wasn't a story about it on the T.G. site, I was told that Billy preferred to break 1,000,000 "live" and in front of the cameras, and perhaps accomplish some other game mile stones(in front of the cameras) for maximum effect). Darren Harris Staten Island, New York -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RMRUCZEK Link TG Board of Directors Location: Brooklyn, NY Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2003 6:51 pm Post subject: Japanese Version...& Date -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello all: Two gamers asked questions... 1st - Twin Galaxies tracks the "canonical ROM" as our worldwide MAME editor classifies it, and other than that, no more than "Crazy Kong". We generally do not track multiple versions of the same title based on the ROMsets...it gets kind of crazy, especially considering how many a classic title may have. Thus, I am not sure we would track the Japanese version. 2nd - Due to a system bug with the original program, the dates can be a little screwy, but the scores should be fine. Sorry about that. The new system should prevent that from happening again. Due in a month if on target. Robert _________________ Robert T Mruczek Twin Galaxies - Editor and Chief referee Star Wars classic arcade marathon champion ****************************** -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There are internal matters that the public will never know,
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thread from Twin Galaxies: Unbelievable!!! WR DVD on EBAY! stevejwiebe Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:56 pm Post subject: Link
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just to clear things up, I am definitely willing to have Robert come out and view my performance and appreciate his generous offer. I'll call you tomorrow Robert. For the record, my board is a legitimate board, bought from a legitimate vendor, and was tested as perfect by this vendor. Doesn't the vendor have a right to check out the board first as a courtesy to them? After all, their reputation is at stake as well, and they might want to test it before a different person tests it. Seems reasonable to me. At this moment, the board is in the vendor's hands and has not touched this 3rd party's hands. I have wanted to ship the board to TG's tester and they will have nothing to do with it. The whole thing is fruitless anyway because testing a board after a game is played proves diddly. I've said it before and I'll say it again, how does anybody know that the board in questio is the actual board that I achieved the million unless they trust me in saying it is? I could have said that the board I used was no longer in my possession and no one could have argued against it. If TG doesn't trust that the board in question is at the vendor's place and is untampered, then why should they trust me when I say that the board in question is THE BOARD? Bottom line, there's no way of proving it, so I guess the only way to verify scores for any title, not just Donkey Kong, should be live. I believe that all ROM's can be tampered with to make the game play easier, so it stands to reason that no games should be verified unless witnessed by a ref and the board has been deemed legit through testing. I just hope that whoever claims the Donkey Kong title has to undergo this same process. I am by far one of the most easy guys to get along with, you can ask those who have met me, and for me to say that I am frustrated has merit. I've done everything TG has asked and am willing to ship THE BOARD to their tester right now. I flew down to San Jose with money (I did not have) to show my skills at their request. I was told over the phone that if I performed well, then the TG personnel would decide my score's fate. In 5 games, I reached the kill screen and showed I could play the game. What else could I have done to prove myself. If I was a fraud, would I have went down to San Jose? There was no mention of board testing at this time and I thought my score would stand since I did what TG asked. But then a mandatory board test was called to my surprise. All I ask is that the verification process be made clear up front and not made up as she goes. No one can expect to play any sporting game and be subject to shifting rules while the competitors are exempt from these rules. TG has been viewing several tapes of mine for almost a year now and could have said that a PCB test was mandatory long ago so that the appropriate steps could be taken. I respect what TG does and know it's a thankless job, but I think that this situation could have been handled better by TG as well. I am not trying to hide from any verification, I just want any competitor to have a board test as well, even if the board is believed valid. Components on a board can break unnoticed and alter play. Isn't that only fair? I have accepted the fact that TG has dismissed my score and I will probably have to replay, so the above is just to shed light on what transpired. People need to hear both sides of the story. Steve Wiebe SIDE NOTE: The following turned in high scores were done on a straight Donkey Kong board and video was turned into Robert T Mruczek Twin Galaxies Referee. These scores include 985,000; 999,500, and the 1,006,600. An example of a specific title that is covered under section 2.0.b is "Joust 2". 2.0.c - "Twin Galaxies recognizes that game titles which have a count-down time limit, hidden or otherwise, should allow a player the opportunity to maximize their score productivity within the limited time limit available, providing the tactic(s) employed by the player are not deemed banned by the Twin Galaxies Board of Referees. Therefore, tactics that are not deemed banned by the Twin Galaxies Board of Referees are allowable within the time limit constraints of normal gameplay for such titles." Examples of specific titles that are covered under section 2.0.c include, but are not limited to, "Top Skater", "Crazy Taxi", "SSX", "Donkey Kong" and "Donkey Kong Junior".
- Must Replay in Front of Referee Robert T Mruczek for Verification.
Congrats to Steve Wiebe the FIRST to 1 mil.+ pts. on Donkey Kong! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Funspot's Classic Arcade Game Forum: General Discussion: Congrats to Steve Wiebe the FIRST to 1 mil.+ pts. on Donkey Kong! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roy Shildt (206.170.104.27) Link Monday, November 15, 2004 - 09:57 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks to Zach for info-will post updates as details are attained. I have the legal right to pose the question of dishonest activities. (deleted line) In the middle of 2003, Steve Wiebe attained a score of 947+ pts on Donkey Kong. It was done on a double Donkey Kong board which has the same program as a single DK board. Twin Galaxies verified it as the World record! Billy Mitchell (TG Board of Director) used his influence to have the record removed to a "double DK" category so that he could have the record for himself. They never told Steve Wiebe; he found out 4-5 months later when I located him. Billy Mitchell started some BS rumor that he had 1 mil.+ DK points on tape to cover himself in case Steve got to 1 mil. first. Billy planned to hold up verification of any Wiebe score so that he could play and say he got there first with a fake date on the tape. I bought Steve a DK single board as a gift to take down Billy M. Steve Wiebe posted a 985pts. and sent it to TG in late Apr. '04. Walter told Wiebe that he had the highest score ever. Wiebe sent the tape to Robert Murczak who in turn sent the tape to Mitchells' friend Chris Ayra in Florida for verification-big joke. After 2 months the score was never verified or turned down just delayed w/ endless excuses. Wiebe turned in 999pts in late June and then poped the 1mil+ on July 4th which is still not verified-nothing verified! When the 985pts. was sent to Florida, Billy reviewed Wiebes' tape and figured out where to get extra pts. He set his filming camera date so that it appeared that he was playing in 2003 when in fact he was playing from May-July '04! Billy got his 1 mil. AFTER Wiebe and had the nerve to show it in New York on July 18 as the first 1 mil.pts. Robert Murczak wrote up a report on the 2 scores. TG and Billy tried to coerce Wiebe into accepting that they both got the scores at the "same time" which would benefit Billy because his score was higher. When Wiebe refused to "play along" Billy sent Brian Kuh and Perry Rodgers to his house in Washington State to take pictures of his DK board in an attempt to invalidate his score and pressure Wiebe. Steve Wiebe went to Classic Game Expo Aug. '04 to play against Billy and prove his skills. Mitchell was a coward true to form and didn't play. Walter Day announced that Steve Wiebe had in fact gotten 1 mil. pts. Mitchell furthur tried to coerce Wiebe with some BS poster that he had made insinuating that Wiebe would get on the Letterman Show if he "played along". It's all on video tape by the guy I sent to San Jose w/ Wiebe. Wiebe din't change his mind and was instructed to send his DK board to Spike in Texas for verification "or else"! Steve Wiebes' score is still not verified and the soap opera continues........ This is the same kind of XXXX that Billy Mitchell pulled on Rick Fothergill to cheat him out of a fair chance to be the first to get a perfect score on Pac-man. Mitchell made a verbal agreement with Fothergill not to play Pac-man untill the 2000 contest at Funspot. Mitchell played anyway in July '99 and got the supposedly first perfect score then. This is relevant to Funspot and gaming because they accept TG scores to be beaten in order to get on the Funspot "Wall of Fame". I'd think twice about sending any tapes to Twin Galaxies! Sincerely, Roy Shildt - Missile Command Champion -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- D_Harris (Darren Harris) Link Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 10:55 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Smells like a conspiracy! Not really. 1) T.G. didn't know that Steve used a DDK PCB. I was the one who discovered that. So T.G. had no choice at that point to re-classify. The only other alternative was to invalidate the score. 2) Why didn't Steve tell T.G. the score wasn't achieved on original hardware? Some would say it smells more like cheating. Not that I'm saying that Steve is a cheater. But a lot of others, including myself, would definitely have problems with a record achieved and categorized under a specific game when the hardware is not OEM. It brings up a lot of problems, real or imagined. It's difficult to understand why you attack the credibility of T.G. while at the same time you are obsessed with T.G. holding your claimed accomplishment on such a high pedestal(which of cause is not plausible or possible at this point). I'd also like to point out that it seems that many of the "facts" in your "Conspiracy Theory"-Billy/Steve-DK/DDK post are incorrect. But there are too many to bother addressing right now. Nevertheless, a great gamer, even if not liked personally, will need to have the respect of his peers, and this is something Billy Mitchell has. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York.
Did the Original Scores come From An Unacceptable
"Double Donkey Kong" conversion kit (or) Gray Market Donkey Kong Board?
All high scores of Donkey Kong Players LinkManufacturer: Nintendo Year: 1981 Class: Wide Release Genre: Platform Type: Videogame SPINOFFS: Mario Bros. and Super Mario Bros. (Mario appears in these games with his brother Luigi) 
ROMS said to be Incorrect? Score Status: Inactive...
Please take the following information as for Entertainment Only and not Fact until you speak directly with those involved.
Steve Wiebe, Is he the Donkey Kong Champion or Not?
Official Blue Book: This book can be purchased at www.classicarcadegaming.com
Rules For High Score Submission
[Rules]
High Score Submission Sheet
[Application]NOT POSTED ON TWIN GALAXIES SCORE BOARD
Why has Steve Wiebe's 947,200 Donkey Kong high score gone into inactive STATUS? He now has a 1,006,600 on July 4, 2004 on tape and delivered to Twin Galaxies. Same problem with the Referee's being that they think the ROMS are incorrect. The timing is said to be different than the timing on other Donkey Kong boards according to Twin Galaxies Referee's who viewed the tape. However, all the technicians in Washington say the board is real and on correct ROMs and correct settings. Is it true that this score has been moved to a different list as not to be compared to Billy Mitchell's Donkey Kong high score in the next Twin Galaxies book?
Can it really be that all Steve Wiebe's games were done on an Unacceptable Double Donkey Kong Conversion Kit? Double Donkey Kong Board: This is a board that has both Donkey Kong Jr., on it and also has the Donkey Kong Game on it in which you can choose to play either game.(Cabinet Similar to that of Steve Wiebe's in Redmond, WA.) (The red cabinet is a limited edition, most Donkey Kong Cabinets are Blue)
Did his final one million six score take place on an unacceptable gray market donkey kong board with Rom's that give a slower reaction time than normal donkey kong boards? How does Roy Shildt, Missile Command Champion fit in this picture? Lets just say that this thing will eventually unfold, showing why Roy Shildt is at the Center!>/b> Can it be that there is a Conspiracy?
Lets just say, "Follow the money" One last thing... Billy Mitchell claims to have made a million points on Donkey Kong as well, so why isn't his score on the scoreboard?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Congrats Steve Wiebe- FIRST to 1 million pts. on DONKEY KONG -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Funspot's Classic Arcade Game Forum: General Discussion: Congrats Steve Wiebe- FIRST to 1 million pts. on DONKEY KONG -- Reply.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Darren Harris Score Link D_Harris Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 08:10 am Link --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sorry for that.
ALWAYS REFER BACK TO THE HARD BACK OR SOFT BACK EDITION OF THE AMERICAN GUINNESS BOOK OF WORLD RECORDS: (1985), (1986), (1987) (1997) FOR ORIGINAL SOURCE OF ALL HIGH SCORES
Double Donkey Kong Board Not Accepted...
Robert T Mruczek: Verification Process of Steve Wiebe Donkey Kong Score quote below: >Robert T Mruczek Quote: I personally, at my own expense, fly to your area and spend the day there watching you play
Steve Wiebe, Donkey Kong Champion, Twin Galaxies Message Board Quote Below: Quote: >The board was tested by an expert with DK boards, and it checked out to be a perfect, original code, Donkey Kong board. The game play as recorded on tape is that of a legitimate game. I even flew down to San Jose to show that I can play and reached the kill screen in front of TG personnel.
This is a very unusual situation which has never happened before. The head referee must see the score being done in person by the player at the players house before that player can get his high score back. Steve Wiebe certainly is being taken to task this time. Imagine if every player had to be approved personally by Robert T Mruczek at that players home after that player had beat Billy Mitchell's Donkey Kong Score, Partner of Twin Galaxies. You will find that Steve Wiebe has already beat Billy Mitchells score many times, and showed Billy Mitchell how to do it in person at the last San Jose, California contest. How many more times must he beat Billy Mitchell before his score is accepted? Only time will tell.... Please read the below threads of Robert T Mruczek exact explanation of the reason why Steve Wiebe must replay in front of an Upper Level Twin Galaxies Referee.
RMRUCZEK: Robert T Mruczek TG Board of Directors - Link to Original Text on Twin Galaxies Board --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11/9/04 Breaking News: Link Zotmeiser tells all about the Donkey Kong Unverified One Million Point Donkey Kong Score at Twin Galaxies Message Board, reprinted Below: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11/9/04 Breaking News: Following Breaking News: Robert T. Mruczek, Twin Galaxies Referee declares that the score must be redone in front of him in order for verification to be in full, and then a Steve Wiebe Rebuttal all in the below thread: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Zotmeister Link Location: Tiverton, RI Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 12:59 am Post subject: Steve Wiebe Break 1 Million Points -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There it is - one small leap for Mario, one giant leap for Mariokind." - Steve Wiebe, July 4, 2004, upon apparently rolling Donkey Kong for the first time ever "Hm." [13 joystick clacks] "Way to go." - Steve Wiebe, about 30 seconds later, accidentally taking out the final top-right rivet on the final stage of L=21 with 2900 left on the bonus count "Twin Galaxies Proudly Presents!" - the title screen of the DVD "This score was achieved on July 4, 2004 on a legitimate Donkey Kong Arcade board as tested by an expert in the field. Twin Galaxies has recognized that this score is the first 1,000,000 point Donkey Kong Arcade game ever to be submitted but Twin Galaxies has not officially verified this score. Therefore, Twin Galaxies does not endorse or promote the sale of this DVD and the DVD menu title 'Twin Galaxies proudly presents...' is not applicable." - the liner note of the DVD "copyright Steve Wiebe - content may not be reproduced without permission" - the DVD label The DVD came today in a simple package which I almost lacked the foresight to keep (translation: I stopped typing this to go fish it out of the garbage), a brown paper pouch sealed with masking tape and stuffed with sports pages from the Seattle Post-Intelligencer. The addresses were handwritten (hence my dumpster diving). The slimcase the disc was in was not shrinkwrapped, making my decision as whether to open it or not rather easy. The data side of the disc is lavender in color. Go figure. The recording is what one would expect from a camcorder pointed at an arcade cabinet (a Donkey Kong Junior cabinet, incidentally, although Steve claims there's a "straight Donkey Kong PCB" within). The audio captures the clacks of the infamous Nintendo joystump [I just made that term up] and the hollow thumps of the jump button quite nicely. I haven't watched the whole thing - far from it - but from what I've seen, he has amazing skill. He makes this look stupid easy. I wish there were a little something extra marking it as the original sold copy, but it's little matter as I have the email (processed through eBay) verifying it as such. Ultimately the legitimacy of this recording in TG's view is of little concern to me as either way the collectibility is solid, but it will nonetheless be a fascinating tale to watch unfold (not to mention that it will give my purchase some history). Oh, and you can go buy Halo 2 now. - ZM _________________ Darkness lessons learned/Avenging golden tresses/Yellow flower blooms - "(dedicated to Millia Rage)", original haiku------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RMRUCZEK - Twin Galaxies Referee TG Board of Directors Location: Brooklyn, NY Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:40 pm Post subject: Four (4) Clarifications -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello fellow gamers: A few things I just have to clarify on this site, speaking on behalf of Twin Galaxies... FIRST - Regarding the quote as reported by gamer "Zotmeister" earlier this thread as follows..."This score was achieved on July 4, 2004 on a legitimate Donkey Kong Arcade board as tested by an expert in the field. Twin Galaxies has recognized that this score is the first 1,000,000 point Donkey Kong Arcade game ever to be submitted but Twin Galaxies has not officially verified this score. Therefore, Twin Galaxies does not endorse or promote the sale of this DVD and the DVD menu title 'Twin Galaxies proudly presents...' is not applicable." - the liner note of the DVD TG REPLY - I'll answer thus one in two parts. For starters, suppose TG received a submission from an individual and the performance is still in the verification stages. Until verified, in the strictest technical sense, the performance is simply an unverified performance. Second, I definitely have a problem with the part about "Twin Galaxies Presents..." especially considering that Twin Galaxies is NOT, in fact, presenting anything on this product. Publicly, Twin Galaxies has not recognized this performance due to the fact that the verification process is still underway. SECOND - The inclusion of "copyright Steve Wiebe - content may not be reproduced without permission" - the DVD label TG REPLY - So let me get this straight...without Twin Galaxies actually endorsing the product, or presenting the product as in "Twin Galaxies Presents", the content of this product, inclusive of all aspects contained within, inclusive of the aformentioned text, is copyrighted ?? So...assuming the copyright is legally filed, then the exact content of the filing includes, then, unauthorized endorsements by Twin Galaxies. Uh, I believe I have a problem with that (to say the least). Third - In truth, fellow gamers, this is one incredibly tough verification for Twin Galaxies, perhaps our greatest challenge yet. We are obligated to make extra sure of the validity of the performance inclusive of proper ROMset, platform and technical requirements. Issues came up within the verification process that must be further explored. Our own integrity and verification policies had prevented us from publicly aknowledging the performance under the circumstances on our website, but current events (the posting of the "product") require that we address the gaming community about the matter. That leads me to... Fourth - I firmly believe that the gaming community has the right to know certain aspects of the decision-making in selected TG matters, such as what the reasoning behind the marathon or leeching policies are, why the submission form is required etc. Here, the verification process includes a few factors on this title, largely due to some special circumstances. Two such consideration for a standard verification process include... -> was the correct ROMset utilized ? -> was an original DK boardset utilized, or as a conversion kit utilized ? Note that these are but two considerations. If you have any questions, please feel free to publicly or privately address me. Thank you for your time. Robert _________________ Robert T Mruczek Twin Galaxies - Editor and Chief referee Star Wars classic arcade marathon champion ******************************
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- stevejwiebe - Donkey Kong Champion Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:51 am Post subject: Response from Steve Wiebe regarding 1,006,600 point DK DVD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I come in peace, merely stating the facts of what has become a convoluted mess to say the least. First, I was given as a gift by a TG staff member a DVD of my million plus game. When I first submitted a score of 985,000 about a year ago, I was asked if I would like a DVD of my game or if I already had made one myself. I said, "Thanks. I'll take a DVD from you." I have this 985,000 game on DVD as well and this one also says, "Twin Galaxies Proudly Presents.." So, I did not force anyone at TG to put on the title screen, "Twin Galaxies Proudly Presents..." It was done by Twin Galaxies by their own freewell, so I am completely absolved of any fault. The disclaimer was put on the DVD in my honesty. However, regarding the 1,006,600 score, Twin Galaxies not only printed a DVD of the game with the "Twin Galaxies Proudly Presents..", they also publicly presented a poster at Classic Game Expo, celebrating this achievement, and wrote up a lengthy article about the accomplishment that was to be released to the public. Why would TG publicly announce the score and have a poster if they hadn't found the score legitimate? I have the banquet on video as well and a copy of the preliminary article should anyone question it. Therefore, Twin Galaxies' behavior indicates that they originally acknowledged the score as valid. To be honest, I have sent in tape after tape for the last year and have not had a score verified. Therefore, I do not see any way TG will ever verify my million. The board was tested by an expert with DK boards, and it checked out to be a perfect, original code, Donkey Kong board. The game play as recorded on tape is that of a legitimate game. I even flew down to San Jose to show that I can play and reached the kill screen in front of TG personnel. I wish to have friendly relations with Twin Galaxies and have no ill will against anyone at TG. I just have to speak the truth in order to defend myself when attacked. I just thought that I could kindly offer a copy of the game at a reasonable price to those interested in Donkey Kong. In consideration of TG, I pledge to no longer sell the version supplied to me AS A GIFT by TG. Please E-mail me with any questions regarding this situation since there is more truth to be told. Thanks for your ear and I apologize for the lengthy posting. Steve Wiebe
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RMRUCZEK TG Board of Directors Location: Brooklyn, NY Side Bar: Egg on TG's face - Egg On Face Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:56 am Post subject: A Few Replies Robert T Mruczek Twin Galaxies - Editor and Chief referee -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve: I will reply to you and use the term "3rd party individual" occassionally to refer to a certain someone that has involved himself to a certain extent in the verification process, rather than mention this person by name. ****************************************************** ISSUE ONE - your game was not yet TG-verified, as you know. The matter of a TG official giving you a good faith gift, as it was, with TG Presents was intended for your personal enjoyment and as a reward for your incredible still-to-be-verified accomplishment. This was not made with the intent of potential resale purposes. ISSUE TWO - originally, you submitted a 947.2K score on DK last year, which I personally verified. At the time, this score was received much later than your 1M "DKJr" score, also verified by me. At the time, no one at TG had any prior knowledge of a "Double Donkey Kong" conversion kit. Through sheer happenstance, a long-time TG gamer had discovered that your DK score was achieved on such a kit...after the story was released. How very nice...a huge egg on TG's face in the process. TG pursued this with one of the developers of the kit which is based on the DKJr boardset. Technically, all it really allows is the ability to play both titles using the DKJr sound set, and also allows for stage skipping. However, standard TG policy which may not have been known to you at the time was that we do not co-mingle platforms...period. The score was to be reclassified, at the time. And as DKJr was also believed to be conversion, the same position was taken on that title. Again, this was the initial decision, and no action was taken since as the matter is still under discussion. ISSUE THREE - On or about January of this year, I received a call from you regarding the DK score and potential reclass. We discussed the TG position on the double DK kit. You had then expressed interest in seeking out a classic DK set to make it right, and that's where we left off. Approx early April you E-MAILed me to inform of a 985K score, crushing your previous record. That was awesome. I informed Bill and Walter, and you did send it a tape. A story was crafted, and not yet sent as we wanted to do a double check, just to be sure, as another egg on our face we did not need. Not too long after that, specifically 6/30, you announced an incredible 999.5K score, just missing 1M. Four days later, the 1.006M was announced. The tape was quickly sent in...I had not even finished watching the 999.5K tape article so started the new one. The 1.006M article was sent to you for approval...all 40 pages of it inclusive of an additional bit of information as you well know by now, and which I will not mention here just yet. The tape was sent to our expert for approval, and it was thisclose to final verification, but something was not quite right. Again, to avoid another egg on our face, we waited just a bit more for additional information to come. And it did. ISSUE FOUR - Based on new information, largely due to the involvement of a 3rd party individual in securing you a boardset, and for technical reasons discovered due to the involvement of another 3rd party individual, we decided to be prudent and to explore these new lines of investigation before us. We were actually less than 48 hours from going public with the story, which was not done thus the score is not TG verified. Part of the final verification included the unusual request to have the boardset analyzed by our recognized expert in the hobby. The problem is, we no longer could. You had called me a few Saturdays ago to discuss your 1.006M game. At the time, you had already been sent a few weeks back the draft of the article to hit worldwide. I discussed the involvement of the 3rd party individual and how it ultimately tampered with the verification process. The "test environment", if you will, was now clouded due to the sequence of events and most importantly the current location of the board. To spell it out bluntly in medical terms, it's as if you had provided a blood supply for testing, then an anomoly is found, and as the hospital tries to go back to the sample for further tests, it finds that the sample is no longer present. A new sample may not be possible as the labratory experiment has been compromised, and new testing must begin. Not coincidentally, a day before you called, I received another call from that 3rd party individual. Then, when you called, some of what I told that person came out in our conversation. Obviously the two of you "chatted" in the interrim. That aside, I arrived at a solution which it seemed to me that you appreciated. I suggested that I personally, at my own expense, fly to your area and spend the day there watching you play on a boardset that we are 100% certain is TG verified. This way, the results would be golden. One day later and guess what is on Ebay but your DVD. ISSUE FIVE - It is obvious that a "backdoor" approach to gain notoriety, maybe even without verification, is achieved by such a public sale of this item/product. This is not the path I would have taken, to be frank. Over thirty five hours of my personal time were spent watching the action as I crafted my article and had to rewatch scene after scene to get every possible and trackable detail, so no small effort was made on your behalf to create a major news story announcing the feat. I will not go into full details of exactly what was to be announced in totality, but suffice it to say that a very, very large audience would have been informed had the full story been released on schedule. Walter Day, I believe, even spoke with you personally on the matter. Some inconsistencies arose over time and discussions especially relating to the involvement of the 3rd party individual and related transactions. Prudence dictated that we wait until final verification could be made without uncertainity. That may no longer be possible with the path that the board used has taken since then. And again I stress, these unusual steps are being taken due to, largely, (A) the enormity of the historical importance of such a performance if legitimate, (B) prior lack of disclosure on the "Double D" kit used, and your re-acquitision of it during the time period of 2004. Some good has come out of this, inclusive of TG consultants contemplating a revamp of our arcade submission protocols, to protect the integrity of the TG scoreboard and gaming community, and quite honestly, to prevent another such occurrance. involving a questionable boardset. Steve, after all is said and done, my personal offer still stands... I will, at my own personal expense, fly out to Washington to watch you play on a TG approved boardset. But until we can work out together, if possible, how to achieve final verification on the 1.006M score...and court of public opinion cannot be used as part of the verification process, unfortunately...we have few options left open to us, I am truly sorry to say. As always, please feel free to call me to discuss. My number at work is (212) 366-XXXX and the best time to reach me is after 6:00pm eastern standard time. Hy home number is private and is not disclosed in a public forum, but I offer you the chance to call me at home on weekends as well. Regrettably I will be unavailable from 11/13-11/21 inclusive, but can work with you either before or after and we can work out what can be done. Regards, Robert _________________ Robert T Mruczek Twin Galaxies - Editor and Chief referee Star Wars classic arcade marathon champion ****************************** RMRUCZEK TG Board of Directors Location: Brooklyn, NY Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:26 am Post subject: One More for Steve
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve: Your E-MAIL bounced back, so here is what I had to send. Based on recent discussion on the forums, it is apparent that one of the best ways to handle things is for you to consider the last offer I made to you in our most recent conversation. All discussion aside, no one wants this matter to be put to rest that either of us, and the best way to handle, I believe, now that the board set has "travelled", is for a personal verification by a senior TG official. My proposal is simple. At my own personal expense, I will arrange to fly out to your home area at a weekend day that we can agree upon, with the intent of watching you play "Donkey Kong" as many times as you feel like. I will bring in tow a TG-approved boardset in-hand that we will arrange to obtain, purchase and have verified by a recognized expert in the field. Upon completion, that boardset can be given to you as a gift of Twin Galaxies. It is the least we can do assuming you no longer have one, and I will personally absorb that expense as well. This is in the interests of yourself, the policies of Twin Galaxies, and to the entire gaming community. No gamer in their right mind would want to know that such an incredible feat might not be at the right setting, in any way shape or form. Honesty and the truth is the core of Twin Galaxies values. The gaming community need not know every aspect of what has transpired...it is neither their business nor should it ever be. However, the issue of the existance of a 1.006M score is now public, and TG is obligated to define it's position clearly why such an incredible achievement has not been mentioned publicly or even on our own site's public sections. Our overall position is simple. The score has been submitted to TG, and was watched but not yet finished with the verification process due to technical reasons. There is no vindictiveness in this position. It is a matter of fact, and one that I am hoping my solution will allow to become moot should you by chance happen to equal or better yet tie your previous mark. So, the offer I extend once again, and without prejudice. You may contact me at either my work or home numbers. Know that I am unavailable from Nov13-21 inclusive, so if you can reach me within the next 2-3 days, wonderful. If not then after November 21st. As a gamer, and a very talented one, it was a distinct pleasure watching your tapes, and to be the person at TG that you contacted with your achievement announcement. This is what I look forward to as a member of TG. And although I spent approx 35-40 hours crafting the unreleased article, I consider this much more than time well spent on my part. Therefore, as a fellow gamer, nothing would please me more than to do whatever I can to help you get a verified performance registered with TG. Although you are legally free to work with whatever 3rd party sources you may choose to interract with, you know my position on your involvement with one in particular. Ultimately, the path you take from this point going forward is your own. The choice is yours, Steve. Let me know if you choose the path that will assist you with no strings attached, or if you wish to continue dealing with that 3rd party individual. Agaim the choice is yours. Respectfully, Robert T Mruczek Twin Galaxies - Editor and Chief referee Star Wars classic arcade marathon champion ****************** _________________ Robert T Mruczek Twin Galaxies - Editor and Chief referee Star Wars classic arcade marathon champion ******************************
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joined: 21 Apr 2004 Posts: 28 Location: Caguas, Puerto Rico Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:37 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve, I hope you're reading this. Take this oportunity. I watched the entire DVD and I have to say it is an impressive achievement. But having Robert flying to Washington and watch you do it live? It is a golden opportunity you don't wanna miss. So Steve, it seems that you're an impressive DK player. If you've got the @^%$#, take Robert's offer. I mean, you can try it at least 10 times in a day. I'm pretty sure you'll break your own record again and, there will be instantly verified by TG. Robert, I admire the passion you put into TG. Flying to verify a record? How cool is that? Haven't you thought of getting sponsors for that? Maybe have an official TG location somewhere, and flying people there to prove their records. I know Guiness does have something. Ohh, and on another note, what is the correct way of sending an Arcade record? Do I have to always go to the DIP settings before I actually start with the real gameplay? Im sure there are guidelines writen somewhere. Regards. David 'Kasht' Vicens _________________ Currently working on: BOUNTIES! Diddy Kong Racing (COMPLETE!) and Cruis'n USA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ FirebrandX Referee Location: Denton, TX Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:43 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My question is: Assuming for the sake of example Steve used an altered board, was the gameplay compromised in any way? Of course, I do not mean something trivial like the sound effects being different, but rather something more important like A.I. behavior or execution speed. The reason I ask is because I have seen previous examples of veteran gamers refusing to aknowledge a new accomplishment based on trivial differences that had no influence on gameplay whatsoever. For example: "Hey that PCB has an extra grounding post on it. I don't recognize your accomplishment because of that." I have seen quotes very similar to this used by previous champions before, despite the fact that gameplay & A.I. behavior was identical. On the other side of it, I certainly want a fair playing field for everyone. The last thing we want to do is verify a score that was made with an unfair advantage. I just hope things don't get to the point of where we have to start playing record attempts in a glass cage with armed guards, while somebody like Darren Harris in a hazmat uniform disqualifies you for arching your back too much on stage 36. _________________ SSX Racing Champion -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- pacmantab Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:25 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Interesting. It had been my assumption that this was Steve's own DVD - when it apparently was presented to him by TG. That said, it could be argued that the DVD was actually the copyright of Twin Galaxies, not Steve. Steve contributed to the making of it, but again the DVD is TG's product. This does not contradict my earlier argument that a player's recording of their record game can be considered a copyrighted work by the same. In this case, however, the copyright owner (Steve) gave TG permission to create the DVD using said footage - thus waiving his copyright privilege. It would follow then, assuming we accept this argument, that Steve should have gotten permission from TG BEFORE putting the DVD on eBay. As had happened during the Golden Age, the scoreboard has "gotten tough." Frustrating at times, but necessary - especially with so many "multi/dual" boards, etc. out there. With the info we now have (apologies in advance if I am wrong), it would appear that Steve "jumped the gun" and is perhaps trying to "back TG into a corner" in an attempt to solidify his standing as the first to break 1M in Donkey Kong in "backdoor" fashion. This kind of thing has happened before - and I can say from experience that as frustrating as it can be to go through the verification process, it is even more frustrating when you know someone out there is trying to get credit for something they do not deserve. As I have said before, it really IS too bad that a few "bad apples" out there had to make things tougher for legitimate players. This is NOT to suggest that Steve is not a world-class DK player. Quite the contrary, he has proven he is on several occasions. But, when a game has been "pushed to its limits" as with Donkey Kong, TG tends to take a harder line with the verification process - to prevent having "egg on its face" later. I for one would love to have a senior TG official fly out to watch me shoot for a record. Not only does it show that you are being taken seriously, but, when all is said and done, you will know then and there that your score is official - no "ifs ands or buts." Hopefully, all involved can come out of this issue free of any "black eyes...."
_________________ - Tim B. 1983 Pac-Man World Champion FIRST Perfect MAME (5/11/2002) Perfect Arcade (6/14/2003) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Begin of funspot thread on Donkey Kong Steve Wiebe scrutizined score by Twin Galaxies ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Congrats Steve Wiebe- FIRST to 1 million pts. on DONKEY KONG -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Funspot's Classic Arcade Game Forum: General Discussion: Congrats Steve Wiebe- FIRST to 1 million pts. on DONKEY KONG -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anonymous Friday, November 05, 2004 - 06:47 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve Wiebe attained 1 million pts.+ on Donkey Kong. Buy his DVD on e-bay! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roy Shildt - Speaks about the Donkey Kong score and his involvement at funspot message board. Im Back! Friday, November 12, 2004 - 06:32 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Of course Roy Shildt is involved! Steve Wiebe was congratulated by Walter Day for 1 million points+ on Donkey Kong at Classic Game Expo in August 04 just past. It's all on videotape! Steve turned his DK tape into TG before Billy Mitchell or anyone else! When Billy tried to say he turned his tape in at the same time- Steve Wiebe wouldn't go along with it! Later- Brian Kuh and Perry Rodgers appeared at Steve Wiebes' house in Washington State (sent by Billy M.?) to surprise inspect Steves' DK machine & board looking for a reason to invalidate his record! They found the DK board shipping box with Roy Shildts' name on it because he had purchased the board for him as a gift to take down Billy M. TG now wants Steve Wiebe to ship his board to some guy Texas for inspection or else! In the last year and 1/2, Steve W. has sent 4 tapes to TG and still doesn't have a record! Some people may consider that a conspiracy but- hey; you're entitled to your opinion! Let's see how this turns out! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amazed Friday, November 12, 2004 - 08:37 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TG wants the board shipped to Texas for inspection? I hate to say it, but, if the above post is legit, I'm starting to believe some of the conspiracy stories now. Do they require all boards to be sent to Texas for verification prior to accepting scores? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- D_Harris Friday, November 12, 2004 - 10:24 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From what I know, only scores where there are visible anomalies in the gameplay, or other reasons like some invalidated submissions from a particular player in the past. Basically, anything out of the ordinary that will warrant further scrutiny. It doesn't mean that the particular player is being held to a higher standard than anyone else. It's just that sometimes all bases have to be covered in order to lessen the chance of validation challenges arising from questions in the future. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Zach Friday, November 12, 2004 - 11:37 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Having trouble following what all the fuss is about, several months ago I was at the New York Film/Video Festival in NY. I met many players and video game enthusiasts including programmers, organizers and designers. During the ceremony Billy's Donkey Kong video was on screen with a game of more than 1 million points and it was time dated 2003. The entire audience watched it and Bill Mitchell was later honored on stage along with others. I met many players including several from Twin Galaxies and also the New England area. I guess I'm confused why so much fuss is created about a score that is not a world record nor was it the 1st million point DK game considering the fact that I, as well as an entire auditorium, witnessed Billy's score on screen several months ago which was time dated 2003. I'm confused, other players were there, maybe one of them can clear this up. I'll be traveling to Florida within the next month and hopefully I'll get to stop and see Billy if I can get his address. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- end funspot thread -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Allan Edwards sets #2 score on Donkey Kong for MAME Submitted by cubex on Tue, 05/25/2004 - 18:14. Link ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Allan Edwards of Springfield Missouri has recently emerged as one of the top Donkey Kong players for MAME. His new score of 789,700 reaching level 20 now stands at 2nd place. Recently this title has garnered a lot of interest with Bill Mitchell, Steve Wiebe and Brian Kuh all setting outstanding scores on the coin-op version. Steve Wiebe even has his own web site detailing his efforts -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joined: 25 Sep 2002 OLD POST Link Posts: 3354 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2003 3:36 pm Post subject: Donkey Kong (Arcade) - NEW WORLD RECORD !! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BREAKING NEWS - NEW WORLD RECORD ON DONKEY KONG (ARCADE) As reported July 5th, 2003 Hello fellow gamers: One of the most revered classic arcade records has fallen !! On June 30th, 2003, Steve Wiebe who hails from Redmond, Washington, has done it again. Last year he became the first player in Twin Galaxies history to pass the one million-point barrier on "Donkey Kong Junior". This year, Steve's focus was on none other than it's venerable predecessor, "Donkey Kong" itself. The new world record, as verified by Twin Galaxies, now stands at a lofty 947,200 points. I had the pleasure of watching Steve's achievement as captured on videotape, and this was the first time ever that I had personally witnessed the "kill screen" in action. Most players have no idea whether "Donkey Kong" actually ends, but let me tell you, it does when you reach level 22 and start with a timer so low that it is absolutely impossible to make it up to the top of the screen, let alone the third girder up. In total, there are 116 playable screens that you can complete before reaching the "kill screen"...level one has two (2) stages, level two has three (3) stages. level three has four (4) stages, level four has five (5) stages, and levels 6 thru 21 have six (6) stages each, and of these (not including the "kill screen"), over half are "barrel" stages. The 117th and final stage (level 22-1, a "barrel" stage) offers few opportunities for points...perhaps 400-500 at most, before the timer expires. The name "Donkey Kong", when literally translated into colloquial English, roughly means stupid ape". Well, I beg to differ...this "stupid ape" is tough enough that only a small handful of players worldwide are documented in having beaten the game by reaching the "kill screen". Not so stupid after all, it seems !! The game allows you three (3) lives to start and an extra life earned at the 10K mark, which Steve easily earned. Steve's achievement took nearly 2 hours of game play, and although he had lost his third life relatively early in the game, he kept things going for a remarkable period of time, reminding gamers everywhere "Never give up, never say die", classic advice from another "Donkey Kong" master, legendary gamer Bill Mitchell. Owning the world record on a title such as "Donkey Kong" is quite an achievement, as the title has not changed hands much over the past few years. Only one other gamer in recorded Twin Galaxies history, Bill Mitchell, has simultaneously owned world records on both "Donkey Kong" and it's sequel, "Donkey Kong Junior", so Steve is part of a very elite group of gamers for sure. Without further ado, here is the recap of Steve's performance, the finishing points at the end of each stage, followed by a few closing thoughts... ********************************************* Hooked on Kong Link Despite all the points, Donkey Kong is not a game players can win. It ends with what's known as a kill screen, a final level that's impossible to beat. Even if a character could run headlong through the course with no obstacles, it never could make it in the time allotted. Wiebe has been hooked on the game since college. Mitchell, 37, says he only counts his scores if they're played in a public venue, and he won't say if can best his cross-country competitor. He'll only say that he's planning something big and unprecedented in response to Wiebe's win. Nintendo smiles The competition is just fine by Nintendo, which created Donkey Kong. "We always smile when we hear about these kinds of things," company spokeswoman Perrin Kaplan said. "Donkey Kong means 'stubborn monkey' (in one rough translation from Japanese), and the fact that (Wiebe) was able to achieve this many points against a stubborn monkey says something." Wiebe said he'll keep striving for the million-point mark, then retire. The former Boeing engineer and computer-software tester plans to head back to school to become a high-school math and science teacher. Source: CNN.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Source: AP Link Steve Wiebe now rules as the Donkey Kong king after setting a new world record with more than 900,000 points in the classic video game. The victory was a solitary one. A few times a week, after his two young kids had gone to bed and his wife, Nicole Wiebe, was busy working, the 34-year-old would head to the garage and turn on the video camera that would prove his score.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RCorcoran TG Board of Directors Location: Glendale, AZ Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:03 pm Post subject: TG Official Editor & Referee list -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- All: Here is the official list of TG Referees and Editors and the platforms they are responsible for. This list will added to and augmented as necessary and when applicable. Referee/Editor & Platform Walter Day - (President & CEO, COO, Founder, Chief Editor, Chief Scorekeeper, Board of Directors, Rules Committee) All/Any Billy Mitchell - (Board of Directors) Robert Mruczek - (CIO, Chief Referee, Board of Directors, Rules Committee, Forum Administrator) All/Any Brien King - (CTO, Board of Directors, Rules Committee, Website & Forum Administrator) Mark Longridge - (Rules Committee, Senior Referee) MAME Steve Knox - (Senior Referee) Colecovision Wolff Morrow - (Senior Referee) PS1, PS2, Sega (all) Todd Rogers - (Senior Referee) Atari (all consoles and 8-bit computers), Intellivision, GameCube Dave Nelson - (Senior Referee) Mike Stulir - (Senior Referee) - Mike also runs the widely popular classic gaming site www.backntime.net Kelly Flewin - NES Mike Morrow - Commodore 64 Mike Mahaffey - Pinball Pablo Bert - Tetris Attack for the SNES and Pokemon Puzzle League for the N64 Graham Dingsdale - N64 Goldeneye Kevin Booth - Mario Kart 64 Rick Carter- MacMAME Tom Votava - Super Nintendo (SNES), Sega Genesis The following are "Referee's at large" who assist with live event competitions, game settings, etc. Dwayne Richard located in Canada Rick Fothergill located in Canada Greg Sakundiak located in Canada Ken Sweet located in NH, USA Robert Macauley located in Australia Shawn Cram located in ME, USA Tim Stodden (Rules Committee) The following are Twin Galaxies Technical Advisors: Mike Morrow located in TX, USA (Rules Committe) Gregory Erway (Rules Committee) located in NY, USA Please use these lists when considering who/where to send your videotapes, photographs, questions, etc. Thank you, _________________ Ron "Mr. Atari" Corcoran Twin Galaxies Chief Editor --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NEW World Record on "Donkey Kong 3" (Arcade) Link Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 Next Twin Galaxies Forums Forum Index -> Coin-Op Video Games View previous topic :: View next topic Author Message permafrostrick Referee Location: Baltimore, MD Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2003 11:53 am Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anders....spot on with everything you said. Yes, arcade scores will get more attention as being newsworthy at places like CNN etc. but here at TG? I don't think that should be the case at TG...but certainly seems to be that way. I think the only MAME news I have seen at TG was Tim Balderamos's perfect pacman run news...at least since I have been here....oh, and the announcement of a new macmame referee. My above comments are more directed toward TG's position here.....that they should treat and announce WR scores for games achieved in MAME with every bit of the gusto and kudos they give to a new WR score on an arcade machine. However, I wasn't comparing a new high score for MAME tracking with a high score for arcade tracking...but a new score in MAME that's even HIGHER than any arcade score accomplished for the game. That's newsworthy for popular titles. For example, before the new recent DK record, the recognized record for DK was an arcade score of 879,200 by Tim Sczerby and second was Billy Mitchell's 874,300. It was a 15-year old record. However, there was a 904,100 score in MAME by Ben Jos Walbeehm submitted November 1, 2001 to TG and MARP. This score was verified by TG referee Mark Longridge and is listed on his TG-MAME scores page...and shown in the online TG scoreboard for Donkey Kong (MAME). However, I saw no mention of this score in a news item at TG. I searched through the news archives since Nov 2001 and saw nothing on it. Then in article about the new DK record set recently, I saw no mention of Ben's 904,100 score either. Ben's great accomplishment was totally ignored here except being listed on the scoreboard for DFK (mame) tracking. That's sad IMHO. As the news item for the new DK record states, "Steve Wiebe has submitted on videotape the first verified Donkey Kong score that breaks the 900,000 point mark." Ben broke the 900k barrier in Nov 2001. Ben was the first to break the 900k barrier. The new record didn't beat a 15 year old record of 879,200, but beat a 1.5 year old record by Ben that was 904,100 IMHO. DK is definitely one of the games that you can say plays equal in MAME vs a real arcade machine. The control differences mean very little to nothing and the game is accurately emulated. Ben should have gotten at least some level of recognition for his 904,100 back in late 2001. I was going to try and set a new WR for turbo mspac in MAME but I'm not sure it's worth it given what some seem to be saying here and the fact TG has ignored other WR scores set in MAME other than adding them in the database. I would think it would be newsworthy if accomplished for TG but it seems like it's not unless done on an arcade machine...since Ben's DK record wasn't even acknowledged in the news. The comparison above that back in the golden era that millions more were playing arcade games and setting records than people are in MAME today. Well.. .duH....but how many are playing those arcade games in arcades TODAY vs in MAME today? I'm sure many more are playing them in MAME. There aren't enough arcades around today for more to be playing games there versus in MAME. I'm guessing in a couple more years MAME score submissions will dominate arcade score submissions. I introduced one of my friends to MAME last September. He vaguely knew of MAME but didn't realize it was a pure emulation so you are playing the actual arcade games. He is very familiar with TG etc. yet had never tried playing in MAME. After telling him it was the same game....he finally got it installed etc. and quickly realized I wasn't kidding....a total arcade on your computer. Now based on this I'm guessing tons aren't aware of MAME and just how well it emulates the arcade games. More and more are slowly becoming aware of it...but it might take something like new records set in MAME announced as major news at TG to the degree new records set on arcade machines are to have more notice and say...hmmm....let me check out this MAME thing. One thing TG should perhaps strive for is within the MAME docs that come in the MAME package, a URL link file or mentioned in a doc file of Twin Galaxies and their international scoreboard for tracking scores for certain games in MAME. I'm guessing there are tons playing MAME some that aren't aware of TG just like tons of arcade gamers back then weren't aware of TG. If that was added I'm sure very soon 1000s would be submitting scores through MAME. ---------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- cubeman MAME Editor Joined: 26 Aug 2002 Posts: 83 Location: Oshawa Ontario Canada Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2003 1:18 pm Post subject: MAME & Arcade, it's all good -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There's no question that MAME is a platform which will continue to gain more importance and recognition as time goes on. Naturally it's up to the individual whether they will shell out money to go to events like Funspot, CGExpo, Philly Classic, etc, and it's very understandable that our European and Asian players probably are not going to show up to North American gaming events. MAME makes it possible for anyone to compete. Rick, you have to remember that some of the MARP players aren't too interested in TG or giving out their real name. Some players have declined to be included. Of course MARP has MARP rules, and we have TG rules and there is a lot of overlap but also a lot that is different. Speaking as a player, I can say that there are a few games I enjoy playing on the real arcade machine better than I like playing on MAME. For some games, I enjoy MAME just as much as I would enjoy playing on the arcade machine, and in a lot of cases I will most likely _only_ be playing the games on MAME. Sure, I'll buy a few JAMMA boards and make sure my Joust cab keeps working. Nowadays it's simply a question of access. There's much more access via MAME than for original arcade machines. I can't even think of any place in Ontario which has a lot of classic games in a public forum. We did briefly consider intermixing arcade and MAME scores together, but I think it's better to keep them separate. Also, I did talk about some MAME scores in a blogger: http://cubeman.vg-network.com/blogger.html MAME scores were published in Walter's 1998 edition and we intend to publish the top 3 scores for the upcoming book. There's no doubt that TG supports MAME. Both original arcade machines and MAME have different advantages. My experience has been that the emulation in MAME is usually very accurate, so my best MAME scores are very close to my best arcade scores. I'll add that the buttons on my Joust machine are more responsive that the buttons on my keyboard, so for Joust I find MAME somewhat more difficult. Keep playing MAME, and keep playing the arcade games you like... my 2 cents worth. Mark ---------------------------------------------------- permafrostrick Referee Location: Baltimore, MD Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2003 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: MAME & Arcade, it's all good -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- cubeman wrote: Rick, you have to remember that some of the MARP players aren't too interested in TG or giving out their real name. Some players have declined to be included. Of course MARP has MARP rules, and we have TG rules and there is a lot of overlap but also a lot that is different. I agree...but the example I gave was for Ben's DK score which is on your TG-MAME scores page...so I assume you verified the score. It's posted at MARP too, but submitted to TG...so the fact it's at MARP just makes it easily available for the public to view...so my mention of MARP was just an aside...not part of the actual discussion which was how TG and TG players treat and note MAME scores vs arcade scores. Ben played via TG rules and game settings otherwise you wouldn't have accepted his score. Other than that I saw no news on this at the TG site. Perhaps there is something on it in the old forums TG used to use....but nothing in the news. With all the hoopla the new DK records on an arcade machine got I'm surprised there wasn't at least a news blurb on the TG site about the DK record set in MAME a couple years ago. Quote: Also, I did talk about some MAME scores in a blogger: http://cubeman.vg-network.com/blogger.html yes, no offense but I'm sure not nearly as many visit or are aware of your cubeman site and MAME news and scores etc. as they are the TG site and just checking the TG online scoreboard and news, articles etc. I hope if you continue having your separate news page that TG has some link to it as well as console news pages at snipercade on their news page somewhere handy so visitors will find them. Even with that...and if linked from the main TG page somewhere...I would expect in cases like a new WR on DK that the MAME score would be recognized in the main TG news page. Even if it wasn't then I would expect it to get mentioned in the DK Steve Wiebe article versus a incorrect claim that Steve Wiebe was the first to surpass 900k in Donkey Kong. This was done before you had that blogger news page going I guess. Maybe Robert wasn't aware of Ben's 904k score? Quote: responsive that the buttons on my keyboard, so for Joust I find MAME somewhat more difficult. I find this for many games actually...and it makes sense...cuz there is a difference in having real arcade controls where each game tic/frame voltages are checked then used in the routine for game control versus in MAME where your USB device input goes through the USB drivers first...then some OS level to see if anything needs to be done there...like you hitting some special OS combo keystroke....then also MAME processes that input then reinterprets it and feeds it into the hardware emulation of MAME. You have added a couple more "middle men" so it's not surprising the controls aren't as responsive. You can really see this in MAME if playing a game where you need to use frameskip to have it play at 100%....cuz then you have at least a video lag in what you see...and time to react...since you don't see every frame. Luckily this isn't an issue with most golden era classics on any decent computer system. This proves my above point even more..that if anything in most cases playing the games in MAME is a disadvantage versus playing the "real machine". That's the opposite Greg was saying above where he feels for whatever reason that the arcade games play harder in a real machine than in MAME...so the MAME scores aren't as worthy of an accomplishment...where for most games they are equal and in many cases actually superior display of skill compared to the actual game... cuz harder controls. There is a big issue with games using analog controls. Anyone that has played analog games like Centipede, Marble Madness, Crystal Castles etc. knows about the input "overflow" bug...where if you move the mouse too quickly, the value fed into the emulation is beyond what the game software was expecting....so you end up with a non-response...or actually moving in the opposite direction a little bit. You can adjust this to a degree with the sensitivity but the overflow input issue is still there regardless. On real arcade machines it's true analog input so there is a true "max" value of input...meaning spinning the trackball beyond a certain speed won't make you move any faster cuz you have reached that max. To move at max speed in MAME is more difficult cuz you have to be moving fast but not too fast where you get the overflow issue. This is why for analog games the MAME scores you see for them are far less than arcade scores....plus the fact for some like Crystal Castles there are totally different rules...plus moving at max speed is very important in that game to grab the gem eaters successfully at the higher levels like 7-9. On a real arcade machine for 7-1 and 8-1 and I could position myself and spin the trackball to eat all the gem eaters as they land on that initial gem. It seems impossible to do this in MAME cuz of the overflow and control issue. I agree with your last statement that players should play whatever they want for records. I know they will get the same amount of respect from me if played on a real machine or in MAME in most cases. I would hope TG would do so as well. ---------------------------------------------------- Alex_Weir Location: Dublin , Rep. of Ireland Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2003 5:21 pm Post subject: re... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rick , If you check back through the old TG Forums , you may come across an old conversation/thread about Ben Jos . Basically because his score ( possibly another score under 900k , but higher than WR ) was recorded in MAME , he and his skill and his character were completely discredited by a select few 'elitists' whose argument was that the fact that Ben Jos would not ( or could not ) travel to Funspot or whatever to play on an arcade machine , well then piss-off , you are a cheater/liar/nobody kind of thing , which was totally unfair and wrong . The whole episode was , IMO , a bit of a farce-cum-shambles , and Ben Jos became rather dis-illusioned with the whole 'game/fun' thing . Ben Jos got his score on MAME , didn't 'advertise' it , and got shot in the head for it ? Go figure....I can't . All he did was play a game . The thing that really got to certain people was that the score he got was on THAT game , and beat a score by THAT person , and I suppose using MAME....."BLASPHEMY!! " Cheers , AL ---------------------------------------------------- QRS1 Joined: 11 Nov 2002 Posts: 809 Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2003 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: re... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alex_Weir wrote: Rick , If you check back through the old TG Forums , you may come across an old conversation/thread about Ben Jos . Basically because his score ( possibly another score under 900k , but higher than WR ) was recorded in MAME , he and his skill and his character were completely discredited by a select few 'elitists' whose argument was that the fact that Ben Jos would not ( or could not ) travel to Funspot or whatever to play on an arcade machine , well then piss-off , you are a cheater/liar/nobody kind of thing , which was totally unfair and wrong . The whole episode was , IMO , a bit of a farce-cum-shambles , and Ben Jos became rather dis-illusioned with the whole 'game/fun' thing . Ben Jos got his score on MAME , didn't 'advertise' it , and got shot in the head for it ? Go figure....I can't . All he did was play a game . The thing that really got to certain people was that the score he got was on THAT game , and beat a score by THAT person , and I suppose using MAME....."BLASPHEMY!! " Cheers , AL Alex, you took the words right out of my mouth! I was just going to inform Rick why Benjos didnīt want any 'publication' about his 900k+ score. In fact he was so pissed off about all the bad comments he got from many players on the oldest TG forum (Not the old one, but the oldest forum:=), that he swore never to visit the TG site again. It is a shame, cause he is an amazing player, and he could prolly get a better score if he wanted too. These days he does not play at all. I think he is tired of the whole gaming scene That scenario is just a prime example on narrowminded thinking from some people. Just because Billy had the wr, there was no possibillity that someone else could beat it ... geez.. Anyway, today it is ok cause someone else has done it.... geez again... I hope if anyone of those that critizized him like 3 years ago read this, that they might give Benjos the credit now... that he deserved back then period. Edit:Those posts about this issue is no longer avaiable btw. I did try to find them like 1 year ago, but no luck Also I want to point out that Benjos never claimed to have beaten any WR. Nor was he bragging about the score. He just informed those interesed in Dkong what his best score was. I think he has beaten 900k on an arcade version too, but Iīm not sure. QRS _________________ Deca 2001, 2002 Champion. Editor at MARP Last edited by QRS1 on Fri Aug 08, 2003 6:01 pm; edited 1 time in total ---------------------------------------------------- RMRUCZEK TG Board of Directors Joined: 25 Sep 2002 Posts: 3403 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2003 5:58 pm Post subject: Some Additional Thoughts -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello all: A few thoughts, to take the discussion to the next level... 1st - "Kudos" and "Gusto" Please understand that the articles that you may be seeing do not necessarily have to come exclusively from just one referee. Any referee and/or editor can write articles, tout new scores, etc. If I wrote an article on every single score submission received, I'd have to quit my real job, plain and simple. And considering my TG salary (zero), I don't think I will be doing that anytime soon. A referee has to be mindful that their responsibilities include information sharing to as much as is reasonably possible under the circumstances. Even a brief blurb, I know, is often appreciated by the gaming community, just to see that things are movin' along at TG. We will be able to post stories on the fly in the new architecture. Right now, the "Breaking News" interface requires Walter, and his time to do this is almost nil right now, thus the decision to post in forum first, and then for selected items a breaking news link, and for elite items, a front page link at our discretion. As for which stories we pursue heavily, it varies. Depends on one/more aspects of the achievement itself and the title/platform, and RARELY does it depend on the player. Certainly we at TG feel that every score submission is important...I recently touted a 98K submission on cocktail Galaxian, not a world record but an impressive score no netheless. I did same for a 16.0 pount catch at "Black Bass" for the NES. But there are hundreds of new scores each month, and not enough time in the day to write about them all. Combine that with the number of referees currently writing articles about submissions (anyone care to count ?) and all I will say is that some stories get posted, others do not. Plain and simple. 2nd - "Opinions" and "Facts" The outward perception of Twin Galaxies is the sum of all of it's parts, inclusive of commentary and actions by our own referees. The "direction" that you might think TG has...promote arcade heavy and console secondary...is hardly the truth. Thus, opinions are formed, some of which are quite the opposite of what is true. Fact - mostly, only very impressive scores have articles written Fact - most of the impressive scores past 60 days were from arcade Fact - summer 2001, 9 of 10 postings or more were console-based Fact - what platforms impressive submissions have does seem to have more of an impact on what makes it to "Breaking News" Bottom line is, when killer console scores come in, usually in droves, the swing tilts towards articles favoruing console gaming. The reverse is true. The "overall perception" that "deep down" the TG mission is to promote arcade over console is untrue. However, arcade versus MAME is a different matter. I did believe before, and still do, that impressive scores are impressive scores. That aspect of me will never change. The golden-age era gamers often have the opinion that arcade outweighs MAME for a variety of reasons. Rather than discuss the plausibility of each one by one, I'll simply state that everyone is entitled to their own opinion on the matter. The overall opinion of TG on the matter...we'll have to hear that from the big "W" himself. Robert _________________ Robert T Mruczek Twin Galaxies - Editor and Chief referee Star Wars classic arcade marathon champion ****************************** ---------------------------------------------------- permafrostrick Referee Joined: 11 Sep 2003 Posts: 1739 Location: Baltimore, MD Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2003 7:01 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- yeah, I wasn't around TG or MARP then to see the Ben Jos stuff you refer to. It's a shame he was treated with disrespect by some just because he wouldn't go to Funspot and do it on a real machine. He shouldn't even have to tell you the reason(s) why he refused to do that. However, even then that doesn't change the accomplishment of the score at all IMHO. As Robert said above an impressive score is an impressive score....period. However, I look at...for example...a brief mention of Ben's 904k score in the Steve Wiebe article as being something that should have been there...cuz Steve set a new WR by beating that 904k record....not the 879k one IMHO. Also instead it could have been reported that Steve was only the second player to top 900k on Donkey Kong..Ben being the first in Nov 2001 with a score of 904,100 in MAME. Not only does that acknowledge and/or remind everyone of Ben's great score from a couple years ago, but also has many of the thousands(million maybe???) of visitors just to check out the DK article asking...hmmm...what's this MAME thing mentioned. Some then check it out and next thing you know the MAME division of TG starts getting scores from different and previously unknown players....which would be a good thing. Robert, I was not aware any ref could write up an article(with approval of the subject of course and you likely editing it before publishing). I have not been informed about anything like that since being a ref. It seemed like you personally decided what to write or not write up etc., then wrote it...edited it, and published it on the web site. I had no clue others could do that also. Also, were you aware of Ben's 904k score? I'm sure if some new LoZ time record was set using an accepted NES emulator it would get written up and given kudos to the same degree as playing it on a real NES system. So that same equal consideration should be given to arcade vs MAME scores as well. If that means we need another MAME ref to verify incoming scores and anything really significant write up an article on it...so be it. I have offered to do these types of things since becoming a TG ref since macmame score submissions aren't exactly flying in...as I expected...so I always figured I could assist Mark for the MAME division in various ways. Soon, I might not have the time to continue to offer this. I still also believe that whatever the settings are for arcade versions should be the same for MAME. MAME having separate settings for some of the games doesn't help the issue of some treating MAME players as second-class players...and also results in confusion of what players can play. Some players might want to match the arcade game settings so they can authentically state they broke the arcade score. They can't do that if the game played with an emulator has different settings. ---------------------------------------------------- QRS1 Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2003 7:47 pm Post subject: RE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I almost forgot to point out one thing: On mame Mark has the rule to use the 'original' romset for submissions, or sometimes the hardest of the clones. I think that is a great idea with MAME!! I have never really seen or heard much about that on the arcade version. I mean what romset is the highscores on? Especially on the older records on TG. I guess (As most of the records are from the US) the majority is the US version. (That is a good thing btw... why? Cause in my experience, most of the US versions are the hardest. Not all, but A LOT of them!) This is very important when setting a record. Take for example the Ghostīs and goblins. MAME Emulates six different rom versions on that game (3 japan versions, two world versions and one US version). The US version is the hardest, and one of the Japanese versions is the easiest. On those two games the difficulty (And different enemies, patterns etc) is so different that if you can finish the the US version you can play the japanese versions 5 loops on the same credit Wich version is the the xxxx game played on? ONE version must be the only one that is allowed to set records on. As long as everyone playes the same version, it doesnīt need to be the hardest one. Maybe the most common one worldwide? Can someone please answer me if TG has a pure policy about this? Just curious, because it is very important IMHO. Also, there might be a problem with MAME sometimes. Some versions of the arcade game xxxx might not be emulated yet. If the game and its clones are equal in difficulty there is no problem as you can chose a clone and compare it with (Most of the clones are equal to the parant set), but if not, I donīt think the scores could be compared to the arcade version at all (On that game) Most people that does not play MAME have no idea about this. Most people think that Pengo is Pengo!! But to tell you the truth I can assure you that if you did play Pengo a lot in the arcades, chances are that you did play different versions of the game (Example)... and not one of them can be compared scorewise!! 5 clones I think (1 or 2 bootlegs too) Just wanted to share that info for all of you that didnīt know it! And to you that did know it, just ignore me hehe Edit:As this thread has been sort of 'offbound' to the original topic I would propose that next person that wants to discuss this further can make a new thread! Sorry for me 'hijacking' this one Or maybe the admins can move these unreleated posts to a new thread? Also, once again a HUGE CONGRATS Shawn Cram for his score!! Thanks! _________________ Deca 2001, 2002 Champion. Editor at MARP ---------------------------------------------------- MKM TG Advisor Joined: 24 Sep 2002 Posts: 1631 Location: $C000 - $CFFF Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2003 8:26 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Though it was way before my time at TG I would like to offer an apology to Ben Josh over what happened. I believe I know who a few of the "elites" are that you guys are referring to, and have had my own arguments with them. They do not set TG policy. This is Walter's area with input from the TG Rules committee. Hopefully, things like this can be avoided in the future. _________________ Please send me a Private Message to get my email for TG/game questions. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FORUMS > TalkBack < refresh > Planet Game Cube forms Link Topic Title: Donkey Kong Record Falls Created On Wed July 09, 2003 1:12 AM Wed July 09, 2003 1:12 AM ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If Walter Day says it's a new record, then by gum, it's a new record. Donkey World Record Smashed The world record for one of history's most revered classic arcade games has fallen. Steve Wiebe of Redmond, Washington, has scored 947,200 points on Donkey Kong, leaving in the dust noted rivals like the legendary Billy Mitchell and Timothy Sczerby of Auburn, NY. "The feat was recorded on videotape so future generations can see how it was done," explains Walter Day, Chief Editor of the forthcoming edition of Twin Galaxies' Official Video Game & Pinball Book of World Records. Wiebe is not a newcomer to video game royalty: last year he became the first player in Twin Galaxies' 23-year-history to pass the one million-point barrier on Donkey Kong Junior. "Donkey Kong was one of the top three most hotly contested titles in arcade history, the other two being Pac-Man and Ms. Pac-Man," says Robert Mruczek, Chief Referee for Twin Galaxies. Mruczek was the Twin Galaxies employee who viewed Wiebe's 2-hour long videotape in order to verify the legitimacy of the claim to the Donkey Kong title. ------------------------- "Domo Arigato, Mr. Robotron... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Donkey Kong Discussion with Donkey Kong 3 Comparision and Mame Comparison included: Link ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NEW World Record on "Donkey Kong 3" (Arcade) Twin Galaxies Forums Forum Index -> Coin-Op Video Games View previous topic :: View next topic Author Message MKM TG Advisor Joined: 24 Sep 2002 Posts: 1631 Location: $C000 - $CFFF Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 7:34 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm also hoping that MAME scores will get equal credit other than on those games with exotic controls that don't translate well to keyboard or Gravis controller. My reason is simply that actual arcade classics are getting exceedingly rare. I don't even have a Pac-man machine near me to work on! It is reaching a point where classic arcade records are becomming a closed club of just a few members simply because they have the PCBs, and the vast majority of us do not. It is also becomming harder to even find working PCBs for many of these games. I consider an MAME score to be just as good as the arcade as long as the arcade game used joystick and button controls (which the vast majority do). I would hope that if someone holds 5 world records on MAME that are higher scores than the arcade records they would receive the same praise that Billy Mitchell and Donald Hayes have garnered for this type of accomplishment. _________________ Please send me a Private Message to get my email for TG/game questions. ---------------------------------------------------- RMRUCZEK TG Board of Directors Joined: 25 Sep 2002 Posts: 3403 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 7:34 pm Post subject: DK3 and Arcade vs MAME -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello all: Two issues here...let me quickly address both. 1st - Shawn's DK3 score and the commensurate settings are found in the TG "Breaking News" section as well as the article I wrote residing in the arcade section. You will find all settings listed there. 2nd - As for what TG believes, this is the general assessment, and it goes way back before MAME was as prevelant as it is now. The arcade format came first, and that's what many players made their bones on in the old days. The platform was inclusive of a few extra variables that the MAME platform does not have, and this is maintained by the classic gamers themselves... -> a pre-determined set of controls (which may/may not work perfectly) -> auditory, atmospheric and mobile disturbances (read: noise, cigarette smoke or worse, and jostling by other gamers or those playing right next to you) -> overall comfort level differences (I won't defend this assessment or support it, but some believe that playing in the comfort of your home is not as mentally challenging as playing under pressure in a real-life arcade environment) So, TG as it will, for sake of purity and also to maintain our historic position on the subject, does segregate the records by platform, that's a given, but as for which is more "prestigious", it has been our policy to date to promote each with zeal, while maintaining that the arcade platform, the veritable grand-daddy of gaming (after pinball), is regarded a little differently than emulation accomplishments. However, let me further state something important, something which is perhaps even more important. TG recognizes that some emulation accomplishments FAR outshine the arcade counterparts, and that cannot be ignored. For example, let's suppose that the arcade WR on "Robotron" was 900K while the MAME record was 1.2M points. Personally, I know which is the superior accomplishment. Let's say each was 900K. I am not going to say that the arcade is then superior either. I believe that the FAIR assessment is to post the scores separately, for purity sake, and although TG actively promotes the arcade originals as the more prestigious of the two, we believe that the gaming community has every right to make their own decisions in comparing the two platforms. That would stand to reason. Realistically, as time marches on, we have to come to grips with a few facts... 1st - "Space Invaders" is now 25+ years old. Some titles are a lot older than that ("Death Race" is 30 years old, for example). Maintenance of originals will still be do-able, but for some titles, breakdown is inevitable. Take "Wheels" for example. The game clock is based on a coil, as explained by Gary Vincent, operations officer at the Funspot arcade in New Hampshire, one of the VERY few places to actually own this title. Over the years, the world record has been steadily growing, to the point where a casual attempt will lead to a 900 point game, which was a world record 4 years ago. The situation will grow worse with time, and there is nothing that can be done to prevent this. It is a fact. And the original coil...well, it just can't be found or duplicated anymore. SO, what the clock should be is anyone's guess. That being said, it will be harder and harder to deal with several types of arcade machines, such as vector-based, the older that they become. So the MAME platform is the next viable alternative. 2nd - real arcades are becoming scarce aside from the modern-era accumulations of titles like "House of the Dead" and "Dance Dance Revolution" and the Ultracade cabinets. Access to older machines via internet auction is an expensive proposition for most, never mind storage and transportation issues. My own "Star Wars" machine, non-working for nearly 3 years now, was a $1,600 money pit in total. Thus, MAME, already an affordable, plausible alternative, highly convenient, and conducive to international competition, becomes that much more predominant in terms of incoming arcade title score submissions. 3rd - MAME does not "break down" due to wear and tear. True, your computer will, but the core program itself cannot degrade with time. Sounds pro-MAME, I know, and it is, but one thing affects MAME that cannot affect the arcade, and that has to do with environment and interface issues. Playing MAME on a PC (or Mac) allows for the possibility of custom keyboards or controllers for starters. TG does not discriminate on your controller of choice so long as programmable controller movements are not employed, and same goes for auto-fire capacity. With the arcade platform, you used what the game had, period. Case in point, "Sea Wolf". It is FAR easier to play on MAME using a mouse than it is in the arcade (trust me, I know). And "Moon War", the game with that wacky wheel unit, becomes a snap all of a sudden. All in all, as a gamer and as a referee, all scores set are regarded with the same passion and respect regardless of platform. I will not detract from one player's MAME performance due to that aspect alone. However, for sake of purity and historical significance, the arcade platform will continue to be held in a different regard. Walter's sentiments shall echo my own in this respect, as will prominent classic gamers like Bill Mitchell. However I am a realist, as I have already stated, and will tout MAME achievements with as much respect for their achievement as I will arcade performances. Sounds like I'm treading the fence again. I know, in my position it's tough to take sides. But, in short, although we at TG still regard one differently, we do not ignore the other, especially prominent achievements on the other. Robert _________________ Robert T Mruczek Twin Galaxies - Editor and Chief referee Star Wars classic arcade marathon champion ****************************** ---------------------------------------------------- MKM TG Advisor Joined: 24 Sep 2002 Posts: 1631 Location: $C000 - $CFFF Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: DK3 and Arcade vs MAME -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RMRUCZEK wrote: Hello all: Two issues here...let me quickly address both. 1st - Shawn's DK3 score and the commensurate settings are found in the TG "Breaking News" section as well as the article I wrote residing in the arcade section. You will find all settings listed there. 2nd - As for what TG believes, this is the general assessment, and it goes way back before MAME was as prevelant as it is now. The arcade format came first, and that's what many players made their bones on in the old days. The platform was inclusive of a few extra variables that the MAME platform does not have, and this is maintained by the classic gamers themselves... But this does not answer my statement about how rare these games are. The classic records is now almost solely the area of competition for just a few people. More scores would be turned in for these games if we all had access. Proof of this is in MARP.Quote: -> a pre-determined set of controls (which may/may not work perfectly) They will ALWAYS be made sure to be working at places like Funspot. I know this because the top players would not accept any less.Quote: -> auditory, atmospheric and mobile disturbances (read: noise, cigarette smoke or worse, and jostling by other gamers or those playing right next to you) I don't think this reason supports the argument. Why? Because the top classic players own the machines they go for records on, and play them in the privacy of their own homes.Quote: -> overall comfort level differences (I won't defend this assessment or support it, but some believe that playing in the comfort of your home is not as mentally challenging as playing under pressure in a real-life arcade environment) Again, see above - most of the top players play in their own homes.Quote: So, TG as it will, for sake of purity and also to maintain our historic position on the subject, does segregate the records by platform, that's a given, but as for which is more "prestigious", it has been our policy to date to promote each with zeal, while maintaining that the arcade platform, the veritable grand-daddy of gaming (after pinball), is regarded a little differently than emulation accomplishments. That is okay, and nobody is complaining about that. In fact, I think we can all agree that the tracking should be kept separate. What we are complaining about is not the segregating, but the apparant denigrating of MAME scores. We need to work on this because the general perception is that the MAME scores are treated as somehow "inferior".Quote: However, let me further state something important, something which is perhaps even more important. TG recognizes that some emulation accomplishments FAR outshine the arcade counterparts, and that cannot be ignored. For example, let's suppose that the arcade WR on "Robotron" was 900K while the MAME record was 1.2M points. Personally, I know which is the superior accomplishment. Let's say each was 900K. I am not going to say that the arcade is then superior either. I believe that the FAIR assessment is to post the scores separately, for purity sake, and although TG actively promotes the arcade originals as the more prestigious of the two, we believe that the gaming community has every right to make their own decisions in comparing the two platforms. That would stand to reason. Realistically, as time marches on, we have to come to grips with a few facts... 1st - "Space Invaders" is now 25+ years old. Some titles are a lot older than that ("Death Race" is 30 years old, for example). Maintenance of originals will still be do-able, but for some titles, breakdown is inevitable. And rarity has become a real problem today...Quote: Take "Wheels" for example. The game clock is based on a coil, as explained by Gary Vincent, operations officer at the Funspot arcade in New Hampshire, one of the VERY few places to actually own this title. Over the years, the world record has been steadily growing, to the point where a casual attempt will lead to a 900 point game, which was a world record 4 years ago. The situation will grow worse with time, and there is nothing that can be done to prevent this. It is a fact. And the original coil...well, it just can't be found or duplicated anymore. SO, what the clock should be is anyone's guess. That being said, it will be harder and harder to deal with several types of arcade machines, such as vector-based, the older that they become. So the MAME platform is the next viable alternative. 2nd - real arcades are becoming scarce aside from the modern-era accumulations of titles like "House of the Dead" and "Dance Dance Revolution" and the Ultracade cabinets. Access to older machines via internet auction is an expensive proposition for most, never mind storage and transportation issues. My own "Star Wars" machine, non-working for nearly 3 years now, was a $1,600 money pit in total. This is exactly what my concerns are: that only a slect few players will be eligible to compete because they own the original. Most of us would like to compete, but availability and economic factors prevent the vast majority of players from competing.Quote: Thus, MAME, already an affordable, plausible alternative, highly convenient, and conducive to international competition, becomes that much more predominant in terms of incoming arcade title score submissions. 3rd - MAME does not "break down" due to wear and tear. True, your computer will, but the core program itself cannot degrade with time. Sounds pro-MAME, I know, and it is, but one thing affects MAME that cannot affect the arcade, and that has to do with environment and interface issues. Playing MAME on a PC (or Mac) allows for the possibility of custom keyboards or controllers for starters. TG does not discriminate on your controller of choice so long as programmable controller movements are not employed, and same goes for auto-fire capacity. With the arcade platform, you used what the game had, period. Case in point, "Sea Wolf". It is FAR easier to play on MAME using a mouse than it is in the arcade (trust me, I know). And "Moon War", the game with that wacky wheel unit, becomes a snap all of a sudden. This is the exception. Well over 90% of the classics used simple 4/8 way joysticks and buttons. A keyboard or controller would give zero advantage to a MAME player over an arcade player.Quote: All in all, as a gamer and as a referee, all scores set are regarded with the same passion and respect regardless of platform. I will not detract from one player's MAME performance due to that aspect alone. However, for sake of purity and historical significance, the arcade platform will continue to be held in a different regard. Walter's sentiments shall echo my own in this respect, as will prominent classic gamers like Bill Mitchell. However I am a realist, as I have already stated, and will tout MAME achievements with as much respect for their achievement as I will arcade performances. Sounds like I'm treading the fence again. I know, in my position it's tough to take sides. But, in short, although we at TG still regard one differently, we do not ignore the other, especially prominent achievements on the other. Robert It is my opinion that time shall eventually make the MAME scores take over as classics become more and more difficult to find and maintain. _________________ Please send me a Private Message to get my email for TG/game questions. ---------------------------------------------------- RMRUCZEK TG Board of Directors Joined: 25 Sep 2002 Posts: 3403 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 6:48 pm Post subject: Walter's Call -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Mike: I understand and fully support your position as a gamer, but I am bound to adopt the stance that I am instructed to follow. I will have a discussion with Walter, Brien and Bill shortly and we will address the PR issue of Arcade vs MAME perception. As I do not know how to do polls effectively, I ask you to in the Arcade and MAME section simultaneously (I know a way exists for the thread to be linked but don't know how), and craft it so that gamers can vote on... -> Arcade records should be considered more prestrigious than MAME for one or more reasons (please describe in your forum reply) -> Arcade and MAME records should be considered on equal ground -> MAME records should be considered more prestigious than Arcade for one or more reasons (please describe in your forum reply) Much appreciated !! All responses shall be evaluated when I speak with Walter. Robert _________________ Robert T Mruczek Twin Galaxies - Editor and Chief referee Star Wars classic arcade marathon champion ****************************** ---------------------------------------------------- permafrostrick Referee Joined: 11 Sep 2003 Posts: 1739 Location: Baltimore, MD Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: DK3 and Arcade vs MAME -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- post removed... Last edited by permafrostrick on Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:58 am; edited 1 time in total ---------------------------------------------------- RMRUCZEK TG Board of Directors Joined: 25 Sep 2002 Posts: 3403 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 8:19 pm Post subject: Clarification -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rick: -> At the time the article was written, as it was intended for worldwide press release, the concept of including the MAME score-base was considered but rejected. The focus of the article was the classic arcade platform and not a comparative of arcade, MAME, WolfMAME, etc. -> It is true, I did not look at the MAME records, as my writing was based on the above premise. Thus, as you can glean from this, no "slight" was intended towards an earlier 900K achievement by a MAME platform gamer. When I write about the latest scores on titles such as "Zookeeper" or "Tutankham", the same practice applied. -> As you are aware thru my recent E-MAIL requests to all TG staff members, yourself included, I have called for our re-considering our position on the arcade versus mame issue, to re-consider whether the stance should change and to what extent. I believe it should, but I am just one voice, thus my formal inquiry to all TG staffers and consultants, many of whom have replied. Walter is already aware of this and is collecting his thoughts on the matter since yesterday. -> With the new architecture, the MAME editor, or rather editors, shall have the full freedom to promote and report on the world of MAME. Unfortunately, right now, the focus has largely been on the arcade and home console platforms, with the exception of the semi-annual MAME style decas, one of which is now underway. Rick, remember that you & I are both on the same TG team, thus our efforts are both altruistic and, hopefully, in the best interests of the gaming community. Robert _________________ Robert T Mruczek Twin Galaxies - Editor and Chief referee Star Wars classic arcade marathon champion ****************************** ---------------------------------------------------- permafrostrick Referee Joined: 11 Sep 2003 Posts: 1739 Location: Baltimore, MD Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:25 pm Post subject: Re: Clarification -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- post removed... Last edited by permafrostrick on Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:57 am; edited 1 time in total ---------------------------------------------------- RMRUCZEK TG Board of Directors Joined: 25 Sep 2002 Posts: 3403 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2004 12:52 am Post subject: Second Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rick: Please re-read my previous response carefully. I am attempting to explain to the entire gaming community that the current TG policy on arcade versus MAME is in the process of being evaluated. Internally, between the referees (yourself included). The gaming community is welcome, as it always is, to offer it's opinions and suggestions. In the interrim, until we collect our thoughts and those of the gaming community, and then further discuss internally, the gaming community needs to know that in the here and now, the position change is underway. Further, in my prior post, I explained that inclusion of the MAME record and accomplishment in the DK arcade story was "considered and rejected". That was discussed internally with fellow TG Board of Directors member Ron Corcoran. At the time, as a matter of stance during that time, the position of reporting the arcade record by itself was decided upon. As I stated before, this was NOT a slight against the MAME platform. It was a decision to highlight the arcade accomplishment against it's own platform's previous ones...apples to apples. In light of our current internal discussions to change our stance, in case you have not noticed, the recent 100K MAME world record on "Spectar" has been highlighted, and also on the Funspot site. This is the first of assumedly many such announcements. Seeing that "change" is currently underway, I'd like to let the gamers see this as it transpires, and judge for themselves, that TG has heard the gaming community's commentary and position, and is doing something internally to see to it that going forward, our position will be different. Please bear this in mind with your next post. Robert _________________ Robert T Mruczek Twin Galaxies - Editor and Chief referee Star Wars classic arcade marathon champion ****************************** ---------------------------------------------------- permafrostrick Referee Joined: 11 Sep 2003 Posts: 1739 Location: Baltimore, MD Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:45 am Post subject: Re: Second Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RMRUCZEK wrote: Please re-read my previous response carefully. I am attempting to explain to the entire gaming community that the current TG policy on arcade versus MAME is in the process of being evaluated. Internally, between the referees (yourself included). I totally get that. I wasn't going to post about this issue at all again once that e-mail discussion had started. I had to reply to your post though... especially where you noted it was considered but rejected. Quote: At the time, as a matter of stance during that time, the position of reporting the arcade record by itself was decided upon. That isn't what I had a problem with. It's all about the statement saying Steve Wiebe was the first player to break the 900k barrier on DK. Look at the TG news item dated 7/6/03. You state "Steve Wiebe has submitted on videotape the first verified Donkey Kong score that breaks the 900,000 point mark.". This is incorrect. Ben was the first verified Donkey Kong score that breaks the 900k mark. Ben's 904k score was already listed on the TG-MAME scores page long before July 6, 2003. There is no context to suggest you are referring to playing DK on an original arcade machine only so ignoring MAME or other emulators of the DK game. Any differences between original arcade game and DK in MAME are negliglible to the extent the game is the same. It was this inaccurate statement that was the issue. Not what wasn't stated... but what was stated. It seems like Steve gots tons of publicity from this. Did Ben receive anything like this for his 904k score who broke Billy's long standing DK record? IMHO, Steve broke Ben's record, not Billy's. Ben seems totally left out of the loop of all of that hoopla. Ok, I understand the general public and AP and magazines etc. perhaps wouldn't have received Ben's 904k in an emulator with the same enthusiasm as Steve's score on a "real" DK machine...plus not wanting to bring up what potentially is a gray area of legality of emulators. That's outside of TG's realm. TG can't really do much about that. Within the TG site, news, and the forums though, Ben should have gotten all the accolades Steve has received. Quote: In light of our current internal discussions to change our stance, in case you have not noticed, the recent 100K MAME world record on "Spectar" has been highlighted, and also on the Funspot site. This is the first of assumedly many such announcements. Well, that's great....but Spectar is hardly Donkey Kong. Quote: to see to it that going forward, our position will be different. I would hope from this as well that TG can contact Ben and perhaps somehow make amends. Ben is a great gamer...and since being largely ignored by his DK 904k accomplishment he no longer participates in the Decas or submits scores to TG. That is a loss to TG IMHO. Who knows how many great scores Ben might have submitted to TG? He perhaps would have kept further mastering his DK skills and set a score even higher than what Steve obtained. Ben's DK score within MAME was one of the most major recordbreaking news items in the past 10+ years...yet almost nothing about it except where other gamers like myself mention Ben's score. Steve then comes along and does it but on a real machine and whoa...everyone goes crazy about it. Even when the new architecture is up and we have our separate little news areas or whatever....something major like a new DK record should get posted within the main TG news...and hopefully not just be within a subsection of the site. ---------------------------------------------------- hanglyman Joined: 23 Jun 2003 Posts: 124 Location: Seattle, WA Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2004 7:15 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rick, essentially I agree with you, but the problem of potential cheating on emulated games always comes up when a ground breaking record is achieved. In the past unscrupulous individuals have employed various means to cheat. When this kind of activity is revealed it kind of taints the legitimate scores a bit. Unfortunately it is a problem. How big of a problem? I don't know? I'm not saying I think Ben used any kind of cheating, I don't Also from what I know of it, it sounds like Ben was unfairly scrutinized and accused of cheating right from the start, and it soured him on the whole scene. my 2 cents DAS _________________ The Greatest mystery in life is why kamikaze pilots wore helmets. -Al McGuire ---------------------------------------------------- permafrostrick Referee Joined: 11 Sep 2003 Posts: 1739 Location: Baltimore, MD Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2004 8:10 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- hanglyman wrote: Rick, essentially I agree with you, but the problem of potential cheating on emulated games always comes up when a ground breaking record is achieved. In the past unscrupulous individuals have employed various means to cheat. When this kind of activity is revealed it kind of taints the legitimate scores a bit. Unfortunately it is a problem. How big of a problem? I don't know? I agree that can be a concern in special cases. However, given so many arcade records nowadays are submitted by individuals who own their own machine isn't there also the same level of concern over cheating? I mentioned this in one of the e-mails so I'll repeat it here. I know of a few specific cases of arcade records on the Gamest scoreboard which were obtained....and still accepted by the scoreboard, of a modified/customized arcade game using a conversion and custom controller(s) and buttons etc. that allowed for setting higher scores beyond what is even possible with the official controller for that arcade game. I think TG wouldn't accept an arcade record on a modified controller system, but if all you have is the camcorder mainly on the video screen of the game and showing part of the player, you might not even be able to tell some customized controller is being used within the video tape of the gameplay. Heck, with mame now, it's even conceivable someone would make a mame cabinet from an original arcade cabinet so for mame playing that particular game you likely couldn't even tell it wasn't the original arcade game. I saw a recent MAME cabinet made from a Centipede cabinet which was restored as the original Centipede cabinet. With centipede playing in MAME on this cabinet using the arcade display effects, it appeared like a cherry original Centipede system on the outside when he had the Centipede controller module attached on the front. For other games types, he had a couple other custom control panels where he could plug-n-play each one. It's pretty cool. Yes, it's something to keep in mind perhaps but there has to be some level of trust between TG and gamers here. The possibility of cheating on just about any platform now is there. For console systems there are things like game genies or mod chips etc. even if using the original console system that allow cheating. Yes, it's a tad more available on some more than others. For MAME, it's why TG for pc users requires wolfmame or the tgmame build now. I don't think they would accept a replay file from a plain regular pc mame.. especially for significant scores. For Macs, macmame is still allowed since there is no special macwolfmame...yet. I have tentative plans this summer to start work on porting wolfmame to macos and also make the replay files compatibl e with the pc version. The 2 main "cheats" for any emulator would be speed of the gameplay and if autofire was used. Wolfmame generally prevents and catches both of these. Sure, it's not fool-proof. A gamer who seriously wants to cheat will find a way to do so regardless of what hurdles you place in front of them. Nothing is cheat-proof. For long games, the pause feature in regular MAME wouldn't be allowed. It's deactivated in wolfmame when recording....or allows it but then notes it in the replay so on playback you can tell pause was used(not sure which or perhaps both features are there). All we can do is hope we don't get too many of these "gamers" submitting their fudged tapes and scores to TG....and when they do...the referees are knowledgeable enough about the game to spot anything suspicious. In most cases, I think carefully viewing the gameplay will show if autofire was used...and if the game was perhaps played at a slow speed. In the specific case of DK, neither one really matters. You gain little to no benefit from playing DK at a slow speed. DK isn't a reflex/reaction testing type game. Autofire wouldn't mean a thing in DK either. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Donkey Kong facts Link Birth: Created in 1981 by Nintendo, the game is considered a classic. Object: Mario must climb several levels to save his girlfriend, Pauline, from Donkey Kong (an angry ape) before time runs out. To thwart Mario, the ape throws down a series of objects that Mario must avoid. Points are won when Mario gathers objects along the way or smashes those that Donkey Kong throws down. There is no known point maximum, and the game ends with a level that's impossible to beat. Demographic: Because the game is a classic, Donkey Kong fans tend to be a bit older than the average so-called "serious gamer". They range from 30 to 38, the theory being that they've had more years to excel at a game they discovered in their early teens. Sources: Twin Galaxies and www.klov.comDonkey Kong High Score Player
Steve Sanders Book 1982 Video Master's Guide to Donkey Kong, The, Steve Sanders Steve Sanders Joust score of 4,254,950 Link was also removed and thought of as a lie. Mark Longridge writes about Steve Sanders Joust High Score Link Billy Mitchell's friend, Steve Sanders, Comeback kid. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve Sanders was the first superstar player to find Twin Galaxies, Walter Day Link Steve Sanders high scores reported Link Steve Sanders Author of the 1982 classic "The Video Master's Guide to Donkey Kong" and Guiness Book World Record holder for Super Pac-Man and Joust. Link Steve Sanders Donkey Kong High Score Discussion 1982 High Score Link Steve Sanders Joust High Score of 4,254,950 (Beleive it or not?) Link Steve Sanders, Donkey Kong Champ in Life Magazine Link
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