Posted April 26, 2005

Additional Post: June 5, 2005, March 25, 2007

Steve Wiebe Blow by Blow Donkey Kong Timeline

The Scores and tactics that were never made public are below.

Steve Wiebe Donkey Kong Timeline with Billy M neck and neck for the World Record

In the beginning...
Or at least in 2003, there was a contender who could match the skills of Billy M. Lets take a look....

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Steve Wiebe 1,006,600 Score Not Accepted link
Steve Wiebe required to Replay Donkey Kong to get his high score Accepted Link
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Steve Wiebe Donkey Kong High Score Timeline
Steve Wiebe Billy M

Who got to one million points first? Steve Wiebe or Billy M?
Donkey Kong High Score is now over a Million Link Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:19 pm:
Wiebe and Mitchell have both broken a million already. There was an interview with them together on a few months ago, but the site seems to be having problems at the moment, link _________________ John Cunningham (JTC) Steve had previously broken the Donkey Kong Jr. million point threshold and has now gotten over one million points on Donkey Kong. The only other person to hold simultaneous records on DK and DK Jr., is Twin Galaxies legend, Bill Mitchell. Here is the timeline for Steve Wiebe.... Who will play Donkey Kong Live? Dates are exact or within a week depending on facts gathered:
Can Steve Wiebe, a 34 year old in year 2003 Mathematics School Teacher and post Engineer with a family and two kids to raise, pull off the ultimate challenge and beat Billy M, born, 07/16/1965, Donkey Kong King and father of three and President of Rickey's World Famous Sauces, a manufacturer of Louisiana hot sauces. Who resides in Hollywood, Florida. Which player will get to the Million point mark first?
Steve Wiebe World Record, Donkey Kong Feb 2003 - Steve Wiebe decides to go for the World Record on Donkey Kong with his Double Donkey Kong Board. August 17, 2000 - Tim Sczerby of Auburn, NY, blew past the old record of 874,300 set by Billy M set at Twin Galaxies during the famous LIFE Magazine photo session on November 8, 1982, with a mighty score of 879,200. Billy M had reached 849,000 points on his first man, and was seemingly and then the unthinkable happened - the dreaded 'kill screen' was reached on level 22, Stage 117 with a final score of 874,300 which was unsurpassed for 19 years. The Kill Screen Level 22, Stage 117: Even if a character could run headlong through the course with no obstacles, it never could make it in the time allotted. Donkey Kong is not a pattern game like that of pac-man so it is much harder to master. Only three people have reached the Donkey Kong Kill Screen in the last twenty plus years. They are Billy M, Steve Wiebe and Brian Kuh. June 2003 - Steve Wiebe World Record 947,000 at level 22, Stage 117, Sent to Twin Galaxies with DOUBLE DONKEY KONG BOARD The 34-year-old in 2003, Steve Wiebe of A Mathematics Secondary School Teacher and post Engineer Redmond, Washington, recently broke the 20-year-old Donkey Kong scoring record. The 34 year old, Steve Wiebe officially tallied 947,200 points on his DK machine. Steve Wiebe, The former Boeing engineer and computer-software tester plans to head back to school to become a high-school math and science teacher. Link Mitchell, 37, in June of 2003, says he only counts his scores if they're played in a public venue, and he won't say if he can beat his cross-country competitor. He'll only say that he's planning something big and unprecedented in response to Wiebe's win. June 2003 - Tech TV in San Jose would like to do a story on Billy M and Steve Wiebe. July 2003 - Steve Wiebe World Record 947,000 Verified by Twin Galaxies with DOUBLE DONKEY KONG BOARD as new world record on Donkey Kong which beats Billy M's Donkey Kong World Record. July 16, 2003 - Billy M / B M turns 38 years old, birth: 07-16-1965 Aug. 2003 - Classic Game Expo Oct. 2003 - Roy S. (GUINNESS - MISSILE COMMAND CHAMPION), announces to Steve Wiebe that Twin Galaxies has moved Steve Wiebe's score to a new section not to be compared to Billy M's Donkey Kong score, therefore, Billy Mitchell remains undefeated in Donkey Kong. Jan. 2004 - Mike Holland and Scott Brasington say that Double Donkey Kong Board basically plays identical to the Donkey Kong Board, but it is said by Twin Galaxies that the board speeds are different. Jan. 15, 2004 - >Roy S. buys a Donkey Kong Board for Steve Wiebe from Mike Holland for $112.00 through the Internet to help Steve Wiebe improve his score on Donkey Kong. Feb. 2004 - Steve Wiebe sells his Double Donkey Kong Board because he is now playing on the Roy S. Donkey Kong Board. April 2004 - Steve Wiebe World Record 985,000 Sent to Twin Galaxies with DONKEY KONG BOARD, score never verified because it was a gift from Roy S. and not bought directly by Steve Wiebe. May 27, 2004 Billy L Mitchell High Score of 933,900 point score reached by Billy Mitchell in public at last year's 2003 Midwest Gaming Expo in Milwaukee, Wisconsin Link June 2004 - Steve Wiebe second World Record 999,000 Sent to Twin Galaxies with DONKEY KONG BOARD, score never verified because Roy S. was involved in that board. June 2004 - Steve Wiebe third World Record 1,003,000 Sent to Twin Galaxies with DONKEY KONG BOARD, score never verified Roy S. was involved in that board. July 2004 - Roy S. buys a second board for Steve Wiebe, which is a Double Donkey Kong Board for Steve Wiebe from Mike Holland for $112.00 through the Internet to help Steve Wiebe improve his score on Donkey Kong. Why does Steve Wiebe need two different boards? On the Double Donkey Kong board you can advance to the harder stages and just play those stages over and over again until you find the most advanced ways to gain the most points. This advance technique cannot be done in the Donkey Kong board so it is harder to practice on the upper levels of Donkey Kong without having a Double Donkey Kong board to practice with. July 4 2004 - Steve Wiebe fourth World Record 1,006,600 Sent to Twin Galaxies with DONKEY KONG BOARD, score never verified Roy S. was involved in that board. July 8 2004 - Billy M turns in a score over one million in which the video tape date was a 2003 date stamp. July 11 2004 - Billy M rumor of a 1,014,000 score had been done in 2003, but he didn't want to turn in any scores until he could do a live performance in front of the media, and arcade officials. August 9, 2004- Fay Wray, Beauty to Kong's Beast, Dies at 96, the actress who appeared in about 100 movies but whose fame is inextricably linked with the hours she spent struggling helplessly and screaming in the eight-foot-hand of King Kong, in the 1933 film, "King Kong.", died on Sunday night at her apartment on Fifth Avenue in Manhattan. She was 96. Aug. 14, 2004 - Perry Rogers and Brian Kuh went to Steve Wiebe's house in Redmond, Washington to find out what type of board Steve Wiebe was using for Donkey Kong. Brian Kuh verified Steve Wiebe's high score and thought that the timing on Steve Wiebes Donkey Kong board was off when timing each stage and jumping speed with a stop watch. Brian Kuh is one of the few players who has gotten to the kill screen at the end of the Donkey Kong Game. Aug. 21, 2004 - Steve Wiebe Came to Classic Game Expo to challenge Billy M to a live match on Donkey Kong which was declined by Billy M. Steve Wiebe professed he was the first to get to one million points, although there was a poster stating that both Billy M and Steve Wiebe got to the one million point threshold at the same time. The whole Classic Game Expo was video Taped. April 2005 - Neither Billy M's one million plus high score or Steve Wiebe's one million plus score has ever been announced and no scores have been officially announced by Twin Galaxies. Coming Soon: - When will One Million on Donkey Kong be broken at a public Venue? June 2005 - Funspot, Weirs Beach, New Hampshire Event June 2-5, 2005: Largest venue for classic video games, and largest tournament with the most press is coming to document the event. UPDATE: Date: Billy M. Donkey Kong score of 1,047,200 made official as the highest score to date. August 3, 2006 -Steve Wiebe gets a Donkey Kong High Score of 1,049,100 done last summer on August 3, 2006, taped on video at his home in Washington. March 23, 2007 - Steve Weibe Donkey Kong Score extensive verfication by Twin Galaxies made as official on March 23, 2007. A write-up of Steve Wiebe's impressive score makes it to the Twin Galaxies Front Page.
Donkey Kong Coin-Operated Video Game Manufacturer: Nintendo Year Released: 1981 Class: Wide Release Genre: Platform Type: Videogame

Will Steve Wiebe or Billy M make a public appearance and finally
get over one million points on Donkey Kong in a live arena in a contest?

Billy M states that a score isn't good unless it is done at a
contest in front of witnesses and referee's with press and the stress
of having to perform under these conditions is much tougher than getting
a high score from the leisure of your own home without anybody watching
you play.

What will happen next with this controversial Donkey Kong High Score?  
Who is the Real Champion and when will it be announced by Twin Galaxies?

6/3/05 NEW UPDATE Funspot 7th Annual International Classic Game Tournament Steve Wiebe Scores 985,600 (Live) on Donkey Kong on June 3, 2005 June 3, 2005 Live Funspot Seventh Annual Classic Coin-Operated Video Game Tournament Link Steve Wiebe from Washington gets 985,600 on Donkey Kong at the live Funspot Classic Games Event at Weirs Beach, New Hampshire with Four TV Crews to witness this event. Steve Wiebe Scores 985,600 on Donkey Kong at the 7th Annual Funspot Classic Video Tournament and he also has a 1,006,600 on video from July 4, 2005 which was never accepted by Twin Galaxies. Steve Wiebe's score is highest Donkey Kong score ever achieved in a public setting, eclipsing the 933,000 point high score reached by Billy M in public at last year's Midwest Gaming Expo in Milwaukee. Wiebe will try tomorrow, Saturday, June 4th, to pass 1 Million points. Steve Wiebe's High Score: Link Steve Wiebe Steve Wiebe Donkey Kong High Score 985,600 Players Name: Steve Wiebe Hometown: Redmond, WASHINGTON, United States Date High Score was achieved Friday, June 03, 2005 Date High Score was verified Friday, June 03, 2005 Verification Method Video at Funspot 7th Annual Classic Arcade Contest Verified By Walter Day Location of High score: Funspot Weirs Beach, NH United States
6/4/05 NEW UPDATE Billy M reports a Donkey Kong High Score of 1,048,200 Link which has been finally verified on June 4, 2005. Billy L Mitchell June 4, 2005 Twin Galaxies, Walter Day, Video Game Record Keeper: announces that Billy M now has a Donkey Kong high Score of 1,048,200, witnessed by Walter Day, referee and now verified on June 4, 2005 after a long awaited verification. Link Message Board for Donkey Kong Verification Link Billy L Mitchell Platform: Arcade Variation: 3 Men, Extra at 7K Player Billy M Fort Lauderdale, FL United States Date Achieved Saturday, June 04, 2005 Date Verified Saturday, June 04, 2005 Verified By Walter Day
Donkey Kong World Records Listings Mitchell was an avid arcade player in his teens and still holds the world record for the highest score on Donkey Kong even though it changed hands briefly when Steve Wiebe scored 947,000, 985,600, to be verified: 1,006,600-- Other Steve Wiebe Donkey Kong high scores are pending. Mitchell's original world record was set in 1982 at the age of 17 and he has come back and took first place back again on Donkey Kong with a high score of 1,048,200 in 2004. Mitchell retired at age 19 before attaining the perfect Pac-Man score but then in 1999 he came out of retirement to beat the Canadians at the Perfect Game in Pacman with a score of 3,333,360 on Saturday, July 3, 1999. Link Donkey Kong Variation: 3 Men, Extra at 7K [Default,TGTS] Platform: Arcade 1 100.00 % 1,048,200 Billy L Mitchell 06/04/2005 2 94.03 % 985,600 Steve J Wiebe 06/03/2005 3 83.88 % 879,200 Timothy F Sczerby 04/23/2001 4 73.24 % 767,700 Tim Jackson 02/01/1983 Nintendo Co., Ltd., of Kyoto, Japan, is the acknowledged worldwide leader in the creation of interactive entertainment. To date, Nintendo has sold more than one billion video games worldwide, created such industry icons as Mario and Donkey Kong and launched franchises like The Legend of Zelda and Pokémon. Nintendo manufactures and markets hardware and software for its popular home video game systems, including Nintendo GameCube and the Game Boy series - the world's best-selling video game system. As a wholly owned subsidiary, Nintendo of America Inc., based in Redmond, Washington, serves as headquarters for Nintendo's operations in the Western Hemisphere, where more than 40 percent of American households own a Nintendo game system. History of Donkey Kong by Nintendo 1981 - Developed and began distribution of the coin-operated video game "Donkey Kong." This video game quickly became the hottest selling individual coin-operated machine in the business. 1982 - Merged New York subsidiary into Nintendo of America Inc., a wholly owned subsidiary headquartered in Seattle, Washington, U.S.A., with a capital of $600,000. 2002 - After 52 years at the helm of Nintendo Co., Ltd., Hiroshi Yamauchi steps down and names Satoru Iwata his successor. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6/5/05 NEW UPDATE Weehawk Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 11:14 pm Donkey Kong Being Challenged Link -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Billy M's 1,048,200 has finally been verified, one day after Steve Wiebe does 985k publicly at Funspot. Wiebe's 1,006,600 still awaits verification, but we now know it will be second place anyway. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Funspot Posts From 2003 on Steve Wiebe Double Donkey Kong Score Link ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Donkey Kong - 900K+ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Funspot's Classic Arcade Game Forum: Archive Summer 2003: Donkey Kong - 900K+ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert T Mruczek Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 03:45 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello all: As some of you may already know, it's official that someone cracked the 900K mark at this all-time classic. What you may not know is that the worldwide press release just hit...even now has the story posted in their tech section !! Worldwide interest in the score being broken has generated unprecedented interest, and in fact crashed the TG site today once the CNN story hit. Regardless of that, all visitors to the site also had a chance to read about the recent exploits on Mappy, Tutankham, Spy Hunter, Tapper, Gyruss, Zookeeper, and the other recent major records set, so some of the record-setters may very well be contacted by your local and/or state media outlets for interview purposes. I am aware that the Zookeeper record recently attracted major attention in the local Maine papers, and the recent Donkey Kong story is a hit in the Washington area. Classic gaming records broken is VERY much important news in today's pop-culture fixated society, so the next major score set will be sure to generate some serious media attention. My honest opinion is that should anyone manage either 1M on Ms Pac or DK, that these will attract worldwide attention like never before !! More importantly is that the interview I just did today solidifies my opinion that achievements on classic games are definitely "IN", so keep up the awesome scores, guys...the world is watching more so than ever. Who was this Gamer who broke 900,000+ A Washington-based gamer, Steve Wiebe, who also scored 1.004M on DKJr awhile back. I asked him if he was going to try for a "triple crown", so to speak, and give DK3 a shot, but he's not interested at the time. I think he's instead trying for 960K+ on DK for now. Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- D_Harris Friday, July 18, 2003 - 03:38 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not to bust anyone's bubble, but what I am about to say will no doubt come up in the future anyway, so I might as well mention it here. I have it on good authority that Steve Weibe has a DDK(Double Donkey Kong) game. One would have to ask him to confirm. Now if this is the case, then this game has inside of it a Donkey Kong Jr. boardset. that has been modified with a special kit(created by Scott Brasington). Now if this is the game he gets his high scores on, then the original hardware is not being used to set the Donkey Kong records, because, quite simply, there is no original Donkey Kong hardware in his game. In fact, even the Donkey Kong jr. scores achieved using that game's PCBs would now be debatable because of the modified ROMs and resulting unknown effects on game play. This of course leads into the MAME rom issues again.(But that is another story). Nevertheless, I personally think that the accomplishment is just as valid/difficult as if done on an actual machine/hardware, but that is just my opinion. Well, now that I've lit that fuse... :-) Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert T Mruczek Monday, July 21, 2003 - 11:47 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello Darren: Thanks for the information. I have spoken with Walter, Ron and Bill, and we are performing due diligence at this time. Walter has authorized me to inform you that we are currently having a bonifide expert review the performance shortly, to evaluate timing and game play. It is quite possible that this is the canonical ROMset, to use the term that Mark favors. In any event, we appreciate your information, and will handle accordingly. At this time, and with Walter's permission to say as much, we are performing due diligence, and will advise when our efforts are complete. On a personal note, the timing and behavior appeared similar to what is expected of the canonical ROMset based on a MAME recording I had previously seen in the 600-700K range last year. But my expert will provide the most precise form of investigation, and I will share the results when done. Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rick Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 07:45 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That is a good point Darren brought up. There are separate scores for MAME since it is not an original game/cabinet so this may bring up another category too for hacked boards. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Stulir Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 07:51 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert, I am in complete agreement with Darren. If this score was not achieved on an ORIGINAL UNMODIFIED boardset, the score should be scrutinized. I would take it one step further and say that it should not be counted as an official world record. There are just too many questions. This seems like a "no-brainer" so I will be VERY curious to see what the final decision is. Does anyone have any idea if this guy got his score on an original or modified boardset? Does this mean that scores achieved on a Multi-Pac upgrade, or MultiWilliams board, or even the Tempest boards with the multiple ROMsets will be accepted. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert T Mruczek Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 08:19 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Mike: Like I said, we're going thru the investigative process now. By tomorrow I will have an expert start reviewing the tape itself. As for the other issues mentioned, I'll discuss with Walter, Ron, Mark & Brien. When more data comes in, and decisions are made, we will advise all. Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gregory S. Erway Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 10:23 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just for the sake of putting the info out there. Check out the following link: At the bottom of the page is a good description of sound differences between a regular DK board and a DK Jr. DDK board upgrade. It even has a link to listen to the differences between a few of the sounds. Seems like this can be used to verify if the sounds are correct on the DK Steve used. I have 4 DK boards and 2 DK Jr. boards myself. I've thought about converting one Jr. to a DDK just to leave in for the ease of others to choose. But if I were to make a serious attempt at recording a score to submit to TG I would swap out the board with a regular one first. Let's hope that Steve did exactly that. Otherwise I have to agree with Darren on this one. We'll wait to hear more. Thanks Robert. This does bring up some interesting subjects though. Take for example a part dies on a normal boardset. A replacement is found but it is not exact because the part is obsolete. The new part is equivalent but actually better. Maybe it is a chip with a faster access speed. Maybe we're talking about a clock crystal here. Whatever. I can see arguments that maybe these "fixed" boards couldn't be used!? In theory the Multi-Pac, Multi-Williams, etc. type games simply throw all the ROM images onto 1 single chip and then a table lookup is done for which game to play and the correct address is accessed to load the proper ROM image. So the game play should be exact. The other hardware is just there to support the larger ROM size to store all the games. Once the proper game is loaded then the play should be exact. It's a big can of worms this gets us into isn't it! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- mspaeth Friday, July 25, 2003 - 10:55 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- *Snort* "A bona-fide expert to review the performance"... That's funny. A well-crafted pirate romset can be devised that would easily pass the "video tape replay" test... In any case, I can pretty well guarantee that at the uS level, timing will be different, as the interrupt service routine is different... From the DDK webpage: "A single PCB that plays both Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Junior. No special wiring or switches needed. Simply toggle between games at anytime by pressing both the player-1 and player-2 start buttons at the same time. click here for more information. " If you can switch games at any time, then there must be code added to the interrupt service routine to check to see if both start buttons are pressed... which requires at least 3 instructions (LOAD, AND, COMPARE/JUMP), which probably adds 10 or so processor cycles to the ISR... If this code is at the end of the ISR, then there probably isn't any timing difference, since most of the game time is spent waiting for the interrupts to trigger, but if it's at the beginning, then the player has a few extra microseconds to move the controls before the code checks them FWIW: Clay's Multipac needs no code mods (due to the idiotic addition of a 'menu button'... Multiwilliams does have code mods to rest to menu when P1-P2 are pressed, and defender requires major code hacks to work... Multipede, multiqbert, etc are also all modified (software switch settings, menu resets, etc). My berzerk/frenzy multigame will use the original unmodified frenzy code, but the berzerk code WILL be modified to remap the scratch ram to the same hardware location as on frenzy, but that will not affect the timing. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rick Friday, July 25, 2003 - 04:05 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If it is true about him playing a DDK board then this boardset and its specific timings should have been verified before the information was sent around the world proclaiming a new Donkey Kong record. How do you say you slipped up and made a mistake if it's discovered later on not to be a record? Guest Friday, July 25, 2003 - 08:20 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Gee, Mark, you seem to have all the answers but provide no solution. Are you volunteering to review this tape and all the hundreds of others from now on ?" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okami Friday, July 25, 2003 - 09:06 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Mark wrote] (A well-crafted pirate romset can be devised that would easily pass the "video tape replay" test...) Purely opinion, which also heavily relies upon complete speculation as to who watches the replay and their ability to judge the honesty of the playing skill and performance of the submission. It's amazed at how people are so quick to take away or detract from a record that Steve has obviously worked very hard to get. I don't think any of you actually believe he cheated. Deep down, you KNOW he earned it, but you just want to ball and nit-pick to "burst bubbles". Weak... I'm also disappointed the constant critical attitudes some people have against Twin Galaxies. The experts there don't get paid a single red cent, yet have to devote hours a week of unappreciated hard work out of pure love for the gaming community. In fact, they actually PAY money out of their own pockets to provide such a free service. Are you willing to put that much commitment into a thankless cause and get put under a microscope while you do it? Would you like to spend just about all your free time watching countless hours of records, write reports, draft contest & rules, pay MONEY out of your own pocket, just to be criticized for your efforts? The people there do their best and don't deserve that kind of crap. You don't pay a dime for their work, so start paying up the big bucks if you want everything your way. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Walter Day Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 04:23 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The only way that Twin Galaxies can keep track of the myriad permutations found in the growing gaming hobby is by receiving help from the players. I consider this family of players a very close-knit group, one which can work together. In this light, I thank Mark Spaeth and Darren Harris for the information they have brought to light in this message board. If it is found that the DK record was performed on an unacceptable romset, the record will be publicly reversed. Adventures like this will always arise as long as there are areas of knowledge that are still unfathomed. Twin Galaxies can't know everything. In fact, the issue concerning the DDK score is the kind of problem that will surface again and again in the next few years. It's a learning experience for all of us -- TG and players-at-large. But this is good. Its part of growth. If a player has vital information that helps us judge a record, we hope that the player submits this information. But, Its TG's responsibility to try and act justly, using the info we are given, and then enforce the decisions that are made. And, I believe that the decisions are, hopefully, the correct ones, and that they will benefit all of us for years to come, giving an anchor to this growing hobby, establishing it as a true sport. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- D_Harris Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 07:03 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Has it been established with certainty what boardset was used? Hasn't anyone spoken with Steve Weibe? I did originally think that players were now supposed to videotape the game board/s right after the record score was achieved, buy opening up the game and zooming in on the hardware.(But perhaps I am mistaken). Initially, I didn't realize what a big deal this score had become. Nevertheless, I don't think that publicly reversing the record is necessary, because it seems that all that would need to be done is to create a category for DDK-Donkey Kong. And perhaps get a signed and notarized affidavit from the hacker that the ROMs are and behave exactly as the original as far as game-play is concerned. :-) Anyway, I'm not saying that I like this idea, but T.G. has already set a precedent for tracking scores achieved on hardware that isn't the original(or doesn't have the exact duplicate parts as the original). i.e.: Ms.Pac-man Turbo. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gregory S. Erway Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 08:00 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well written reply Walter. I'm glad you keep track of things going on over here as well as the regular TG forums. I agree completely with what you said. It seems more and more "Multi" type boards are coming out and it is near impossible to know everything about each possible one much less even know which exist without the help of all the gamers. There is a vast knowledge base out there and all we have to due is say something and TG will handle the matter appropriately as soon as enough information is gathered for the situation. Either way the score Steve put up is incredible. Whether it ends up in a new DDK category or remains where it is, he's got my respect. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Walter Day Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 10:13 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You are right, Darren, Steve's accomplishment would be transferred to a new category for the DDK. His hold on the traditional DK record would be relinquished, however. As for further embellishments on the required specs for videotape, I think we are far from the end of this puzzling problem. And, at some point, it may eventually demand game-by-game considerations. Thank you, Walter Day -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tommi Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 09:16 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Imho if game play is same, no harm done. Who knows what ROMs were used at some 20y old TG record anyway. If you make different categories for dk and "ddk", which is next step...different categories for all different "clonesets". But if game play differs, then I think it's a matter of how much difference is there, and which way. Who knows which romset previous record was played with? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Longridge Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 09:54 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- " then the player has a few extra microseconds to move the controls before the code checks them " A few extra MICROseconds, as in millionths of a second? Well, I'm as much a purist as anyone, but I don't see how a few extra microseconds is going to help any player. I bet Steve wasn't switching between games during his record. I agree that original hardware should be used, but if I played a multi-game Williams machine and it "felt" right, I'd probably say let the record set on such a machine stand. Of course for any serious gaming effort why beg trouble? May as well do it on the original hardware, if possible. What? You said you played Joust with a blue stick instead of the original yellow?? DISQUALIFIED! ;-) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- mspaeth Monday, July 28, 2003 - 01:51 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Guest" is a moron... I'm not dissing the 'experts', I'm just saying that a video tape is not definitive proof that a score was attained legitimately.... Simple case and point... breakout... With about 5 minutes of work, I could modify a breakout boardset to eliminate the control pot as an input, and instead tie the output of the ball location circuit to the pot output... the paddle would track the ball perfectly, so I'd never lose the ball, and get a 'perfect' score on 1 ball. With a video tape of the screen, how can anyone tell I modified the board like that? Think the paddle movement is too smooth? That's OK, I can add a little more circuitry some randomness to it, and just make sure it's in the right spot when it needs to be... How about the records for the B&W driving games like wheels, wheels 2, sprint 2, lemans, etc? The game time is determined by the R-C time constant of a pot on the PCB... maybe one day the game's hotter inside, so the resistance goes up and the actual game time changes, even on the same machine... Does the temperature invalidate a score? My point is, all this anal verification of scores by videotape (gee, we can't trust funspot to have games set on TGTS and not lie to gain all the publicity associated with new scores now?!) seems pretty ridiculous when it's so easy to circumvent. In the case of donkey Kong, after watching Billy M play, apparently one large determining factor of performance is how often Kong throws erratic barrels (IIRC, he though the machine at funspot did this too frequently, too often). How can videotape prove that a seemingly random (but essentially deterministic) component of the game like erratic barrels hasn't been modified to make game play easier? I just think everyone's taking game scores way too seriously -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert T Mruczek Monday, July 28, 2003 - 08:32 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark: No one doubts your capabilities of programming a game to effectively and convincingly play itself. Convincing "bot" programs can be made for almost every game situation, if not all. The spirit of what game verification is all about is not about who can pull the wool over the verifier's has been and always will be about good-natured competitiveness, plain and simple. People originally played games for their own amusement. Eventually, and you all know the history, people found great personal satisfaction in seeing how well their best efforts compared to others in the field of gaming. Someone noticed that, and devoted some time to pursuing this. Plain and simple. Mark, I don't think it's fair to say that every gamer "takes things too seriously". Some do, some don't, and some simply enjoy being part of it or reading about it. Personal choices, that's all. As for the "due diligence" process for the main issue at hand, here's what I can tell you for now... 1st - The game designer has been contacted, and his opinions have been received and are on record with Twin Galaxies. Many technical specifications will soon be available for evaluation. 2nd - The videotape has been watched by two experts now. All I can say is that there are no two better people suited to watching the performance than the two selected. I noticed you being very dismissive of the term "expert", even going so far as to misquote me and categorize him as a "bona-fide" expert. That subtlety aside, I doubt you will challenge this expert's findings. On a personal note, within this thread, I have seen calls for checking the timing of a tape, checking for a pirated or well-crafted Romset, having "extra microseconds" of time, and even requesting a signed affidavit by a designer, while simultaneously downplaying a request to capture settings on videotape for purposes of basic due diligence. Tell me...who is now taking gaming a little too seriously here ? I have to publicly state the following for the record. At the time that the tape was watched, and the story was written, I did not know that a "Double Donkey Kong" conversion kit even existed. My colleague Ron Corcoran was unaware of it. Walter Day was unaware if it. Reasonable common sense was exercised during the verification process. I had personally contacted the gamer at the time of the verification. No deception was evident. If you believe that this was not serious enough of an effort, then why end your last post that gamers are taking high scores way to seriously ? That's hypocritical. A good-faith service and recap was the result of the score verification. Had Darren not known that a "DDK" unit was in usage, I seriously doubt anyone else would have noticed, especially since I know for a fact that slightly higher has already been unofficially accomplished, tape receipt pending. I respect Walter too much and will not say any more negative than I have already stated above. However, I have to consider why, for the recent eleven world record arcade stories that TG posted, that more less-than-positive comments are resulting from this DDK issue than all the positive comments for all the other score reports combined. Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okami Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 08:00 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's because you have all these player-haters, who've got nothing better to do than to stamp their feet and look for any excuse to belittle the accomplishment. Like I said before, I seriously doubt any of these jerks actually believe Steve cheated. They KNOW they earned it, but as long as they can convince themselves their point is worthwhile, they will keep on player-hating. As far as I concerned Robert, you needn't give these stooges another minute of your time. No matter what you do, no matter how much of your free time you put into dealing with their crap, they will NEVER let up until you DQ Steve. That's all they want and for the simple reason of player-hating. Oh sure, they can talk about such noble causes as "timing issues", but deep down its all about disrespect. It's sad really. I expected better of the older players, but they are showing themselves to royally suck as human beings. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- D_Harris Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 02:05 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm going to attempt to bring this thread back to a level of maturity. Walter has always asked for help and opinions from the players in the areas of score verification and game play rules. He never shut the door on player input. And since it is always in Twin Galaxies best interest to be consistent and have workable standards, many issues have to be addressed. This is always a work in progress and Walter has asked for help from all of us. Greg, Tommy, Mark L. and I have already stated our respect for Steve's score, even if it was found to be accomplished on a DDK game, and no one has expressed any problem with a separate DDK category. Mark S. and I are not the best of friends, but what he said was fact, and his points were on target. The only disagreement I have is that I believe that differences can be determined simply by watching a tape of a DK game versus and DDK-DK game. But only because of what Greg mentioned as far as audio differences between the two. Rick's concern about having to retract a major score like Donkey Kong is shared by the rest of us. And it is a legitimate issue. And Mike's note of how this would affect scores gotten on the various Multi-games is also very important because many of us have these kits.(And the last thing we need are a bunch of complaints in the future about record scores achieved on unoriginal hardware). Accepting DDK-DK as a legitimate DK score would open the floodgates.(i.e.: My friend Abdner would now only have to come over to my house to break the Robotron record on my Multi-Williams game. Then there would be no way to convince everyone that the game play was exactly like it would be on the original game). Nevertheless, no one here is attacking Twin Galaxies, or arbitrarily targeting Steve's score. Most in this thread have supported T.G. long before certain others knew of its existence. We are attempting to resolve an important issue, so it'll serve as a example, and help lay down guidelines for the future when this issue will eventually come up again. BTW, no one was "downplaying a request to capture settings on videotape for purposes of basic due diligence." But I thought that I heard(or read) somewhere that that was going to be a rule, at least for certain games. And I don't know what is meant by the "less-than-positive comments" resulting from this DDK issue, but no one has come across any verification problems with any of the other recent records that I am aware of.(Again, this is just an important issue that needs to be addressed in an effort to keep the playing field level). Darren Harris Staten Island, New York -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert T Mruczek Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 04:41 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello Darren: Points well taken. Here's what I know thus far...full details to come. TECHNICAL - Brien King, one of my fellow TG Board of Director members, was a beta-tester on the DDK project. He has been in contact with a gentlemen named Scott Brasington, whom you might already be familiar with, regarding the technical aspects of the DDK project. I want to first make absolutely sure that I am clear with Brien as to what I can/cannot quote from the information received thus far before I post anything, but so far I do have record of his professional opinion on the unit. VERIFICATION - You probably guessed who is disseminating the tape right now... the only person capable of catching any peculiarity, and the only person who could not possibly benefit from watching the tape. That being said, when I have both aspects of the due diligence performed, we will release all information and the final decision on how things will be handled. Rather than jump the gun and indicate which ways things are leaning, all I'll ask is to please be patient as the 2-part investigation takes place. Thanks. Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert T Mruczek Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 05:17 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ach...wrong word...meant "dissecting", not "disseminating" !! Anyway, word on the full review to come, then will inform all. Thanks. Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rick Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 06:29 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Darren, You are correct. Having to retract a score is not a good thing and causes skepticism when future scores are announced as people will question it as a genuine "record" or another retraction waiting to happen. I have nothing against Twin Galaxies and I am not a player-hater as Okami calls them. Facts are facts. The entire thing boils down to this... Is DDK the same game as Donkey Kong? It's quite simple. It would have been nice if Steve, the player, had mentioned beforehand he did not have an original DK machine. Surely no one here wishes to have the score disqualified, they only want to know if this is a true DK record or a new DDK record and nothing more. Some people seem to be reading more into this than there is. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Barry Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 07:58 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Whoa, what happened here? I was reading some cool messages on fantasy game collections and world records and then WHAM, this comes up. Why does this not surprise me. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard M. Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 10:46 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'd like to hear of Steve Wiebe playing an actual Donkey Kong machine. If, as others have said on this thread, there is little or no differences between the DDK machine and the original DK, then he should be able to break 900K on the original and silence all critics. :-) -- Richard M. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Donkey Kong - Conversion and Classic Link -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Funspot's Classic Arcade Game Forum: Archive Fall 2003: Donkey Kong - Conversion and Classic -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert T Mruczek Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 09:04 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello all: Analysis is virtually complete. Except for additional minute details of differences that I expect to receive shortly from Brian Kuh, we have completed the analysis of "Double Donkey Kong" and what is regarded as classic "Donkey Kong". Experts Bill Mitchell and Chris Ayra contributed to the analysis of the tape itself. Fellow referee Brien King managed to discuss the issue with Scott Brasington, one of the people who designed the "Double Donkey Kong" conversion kit. As per Brien, Scott has agreed to let us post his OPINIONS on the matter below, as well as a few other interesting tidbits he provided. Afterwards, the official TG reply shall follow. **************************** The summary is in MY OPINION these games (DKjr and DK) are identical to the original for purposes of world records. Details (opinions) below. a) the EPROM speed has no affect as the CPU clock speed is the determining factor. the EPROM just has to be fast enough to keep up with the CPU. If too slow the game probably would not work at all. b) I have patches in the attract mode sequence, power up sequence, initialization sequence, high score save sequence, etc.. These patches do not execute during game play. There is one patch in the interrupt handler that is executed all the time even during game play. For DDK I took very special attention just for this reason and was able to make the P1+P2 check in the same amount of CPU cycles as the original ISR (it took a clever combination of checking for coin input and p1+p2 at same time). Game play timing on this game is really determined by the frame interrupt. Which runs at 30 (or 60) interrupts per second (I can't remember which it is). This HW interrupt is the main timing to drive the game play state machines etc... This is a very common implementation for classic raster games. In the 'background' DK/J takes care of dealing with music and a few other misc housekeeping activities. Each interrupt is when the game software checks for players inputs, moves the graphics, checks for points to be awarded etc. So really the hardware has dictated that this occurs for each video frame and the length of how many instructions executed is not critical as long as you don't overrun your budget in which case I suppose you could lose a frame. Again, that is why I was careful in making the interrupt path of code have the same cycle timing as the original. c) The sounds that are different are handled by external analog hardware. The game software simply writes to a latch and the external analog hardware produces the sound independent of the game software timing. DDK since it is built on DKjr hardware so the sounds are those of DKjr. The sounds are mapped as follows. DK pound is mapped to DKjr crash DK walk is mapped to Dkjr walk DK jump is mapped to Dkjr jump. None of these affect game play in terms of being able to achieve a high score. So my opinion is for DK or DKJ you can accept a score on DDK. That being said, lets talk about a couple other of my kits.... Asteroids: My asteroids HS kit has extended scoring. In order to implement this I had to add extra instructions (and vector instructions) in the normal game play sequence. This extra code is to check to see if extra digits need to be displayed and display them if needed. This causes extra CPU cycles and extra vector engine cycles if the additional digits are displayed. Vector games are a little different in raster games in timings. They don't really have a frame interrupt at a constant speed, instead they setup a list of vectors to draw, tell the hardware to draw them, then in the background setup the next list of vectors to display. The 'timing' is more a function of how fast it can draw all the vectors. The more vectors the slower. the less the faster. I don't know for sure, but I would guess this can cause very slight differences in the game play from a timing perspective. Not sure if that makes it easier or harder?? Additionally with the extended scoring, when the game rolls to 100K, it continues to execute with hard difficulty (the original game when it rolled back over to 0 would have reverted back to easy mode for the first 30k). So in that sense asteroids HS game is harder, as the player does not get the break of going back to easy every time it is rolled (since it does not roll over). Multipede: Centipede/Multipede multigame: Since this game is built millipede hardware, I think a millipede score on a multipede would be acceptable for similar reasons as above about how raster games do timings and how the patches were applied. However, for centipede on multipede the patches are more complicated. They are more complicated due to how the trackballs are handled. So the interrupt path for centipede on multipede is longer. I don't think this affects gameplay, as again, for most raster games gameplay timing is controlled by the frame interrupt. But I can't be for certain it is easier or harder or same. Hope that helps. Let me know if you have any more questions. *********************************** At this time, the current TG world record will be declassed accordingly to a separate category. We believe the score to be an incredible accomplishment in its own right, and will always treat it as such, however for sake of purity, the reclass is necessary once the new category is added. Additionally, Steve Wiebe contacted me this weekend and understands the situation and our position, and is in the process of acquiring a classic DK so as to compete on the real deal. That being said, I trust that the matter is now put to rest to everyone's satisfaction. I just wanted to tie up the sole loose end and provide closure to the site where the information on the DDK conversion kit originated. Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- D_Harris Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 12:54 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Does that mean a completely different category, or the same with a "flag" denoting the specific(T.G. approved) hack?(Since these are now being tracked, completely separate categories are totally unnecessary in my opinion). And since T.G. will now track another major hack(outside of Turbo Ms.Pac-man), what about certain Pac-man, and Williams' game(Robotron, StarGate, ect.) hack/s? Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert T Mruczek Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 06:24 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello Darren: The platform will still be regarded as "Arcade", yet the title is not being considered a "Hack". Rather, it is being considered as a TG-approved variant in the arcade section of the scoreboard and upcoming Book. The major hacks that TG tracks (Turbo Ms Pac, Super Galaxian, Super Missile Attack, can't be sure if there are others) are also listed in the arcade section, and are generally regarded as TG-approved "hacks" but are listed in the arcade category for simplicity sake. Just like "Jungle King" and "Jungle Hunt", we will treat the two DK scores separate in the arcade category. The DKJr score, however, will remain as is...there is sufficient evidence to substantiate that there is virtually no difference, including timing, between the two, as the conversion kit is DKJr based to begin with. Hope that helps. Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- mspaeth Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 07:50 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's just bizarre. The only hardware differences between dk and dkjr is addition sprites, and modified analog sounds. Almost no code changes are needed to make DK run on DKJr hardware, so if the changes needed to add the game switching the DKjr are considered negligible enough to not differentiate between DDK DKJr and real DKJr, the same code changes to DK would seem to be just as negligible. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert T Mruczek Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 11:58 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello Mark: Well, after the investigation and timing differences were noted, the prudent course of action was to track the two separately. The differences, unfortunately, are not as glaring as, say, the known ROMsets for "Marble Madness" or "Astro Fighter", but across Level 22 and 117 stages they do add up. There were gamers that said the two HAD to be tracked separately, those that said "only if" the differences were significant, and those that said "not at all"...just so you know. Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rick Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 02:11 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert, I can understand your interest in researching the differences in DK and DDK but isn't there some loss of objectivity when one of the experts analyzing the game for you is a current record holder on that title (Billy M)? After looking at the current book of records I see Billy M and Chris Ayra have a relationship that goes back to the original Twin Galaxies arcade so that appears to bring the objectivity level even lower, doesn't it? You know, buddies will stick together and back each other up. After reading several postings from mspaeth, it would appear he is very knowledgeable with computer hardware and software and probably would have been a better choice as analyst since he appears to have no stake in the outcome. What did the creator of DDK have to say about timing issues? Just my 2 cents. Rick -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Barry Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 05:39 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- An explanation of how the test was conducted is in order. Two guys sitting on a couch watching a videotape can hardly be called scientific. Rick, it seems the creator's input you were looking for is in the first posting of this thread. From what he has written, I doubt any human could tell the difference. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert T Mruczek Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 09:49 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Barry: Thanks for the reply. I agree...human players watching a tape is not absolutely scientific. However, consider that watch has 22+ years of experience at the title, more so than the originating programmers. If anyone can visually spot timing differences, it's these guys. Second, we have the extremely detailed opinions of one of the gamer designers which pretty much states that the games, in his opinion, play the same for record and scoring purposes. Third, I have data from a third source, Brian Kuh, who plays this one more so than most gamers and who has recently achieved a kill screen proficiency. Add up all the empirical data and we at TG believe that we've covered all the bases, and with the right sources. For sake of purity, the scores are split. As for myself, I place a great deal of implicit trust and respect in the integrity of fellow TG Board of Director member, Bill Mitchell, and know that he places what's good for the gaming community first and foremost in all of his gaming contributions. Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anonymous Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 07:44 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "..As for myself, I place a great deal of implicit trust and respect in the integrity of fellow TG Board of Director member, Bill Mitchell, and know that he places what's good for the gaming community first and foremost in all of his gaming contributions." The employees of Enron thought the same way. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard M. Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 08:20 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anonymous' skepticism is understood and felt to a degree. I am willing to trust almost anybody at least a little. But I am unwilling to trust anyone absolutely. Maybe the games do play the same so that an expert on the "conversion kit" version is an expert on the original. I think the proof of that would be for Steve Wiebe to play the original Donkey Kong to establish the record. His existing game should fall under a separate category. And I see from Robert's post opening his thread that Steve is getting his own DK machine for this purpose. :-) -- Richard M. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert T Mruczek Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 07:01 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello all: The famous "Anonymous" posts yet again. This time, I do respect his/her opinion. No debate from me. However, I have to mention the following, which might be apparent to some but not to all... -> Regardless of whom you rely on for your scoring information and verification, know that the staff involved is likely small, less than 10 people (if even that many), none of which get compensated for their efforts -> We do this in addition to full-time jobs and family concerns -> In the precious few hours left after transit to/from work and what little eating/sleeping we enjoy, we dedicate that to the gaming community -> It is in those few hours per week, which in some cases is almost a full-time job in itself, that we verify scores, watch performances, write articles, answer gamer inquiries, and tend to media requests That being said, we do try our best to work with the resources at hand. Unfortunately, we do not have a multi-tiered group that can check the checkers and so's just us...we rely on ourselves and fellow gamers for the matters at hand. Your "Enron" comment, though well understood, is an entirely different matter, as no monies are involved, only integrity. Say what you will about "Arthur Anderson" as well, but there too was monies involved. We are a free service provider for the time being, one which shares (more so than most) results of investigations, extreme details of verifications, and more. Others do not share our enthusiasm for openness and full disclosure. As for the trust I place in my colleague, know that there are five (5) Board Members, so a certain amount of check-and-balance is in place, for the sake of further maintaining impartiality within decisions affecting the gaming community. I believe that it is only prudent to have a check-and-balance system in place, trust aside, so that different perspectives are always consulted. Again, your comments are well appreciated and understood, though I do not necessarily agree with the analogy in full. Robert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve Wiebe Reply Link -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thread from Twin Galaxies: Unbelievable!!! WR DVD on EBAY! stevejwiebe Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:56 pm Post subject: Official thread Link -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just to clear things up, I am definitely willing to have Robert come out and view my performance and appreciate his generous offer. I'll call you tomorrow Robert. For the record, my board is a legitimate board, bought from a legitimate vendor, and was tested as perfect by this vendor. Doesn't the vendor have a right to check out the board first as a courtesy to them? After all, their reputation is at stake as well, and they might want to test it before a different person tests it. Seems reasonable to me. At this moment, the board is in the vendor's hands and has not touched this 3rd party's hands. I have wanted to ship the board to TG's tester and they will have nothing to do with it. The whole thing is fruitless anyway because testing a board after a game is played proves diddly. I've said it before and I'll say it again, how does anybody know that the board in question is the actual board that I achieved the million unless they trust me in saying it is? I could have said that the board I used was no longer in my possession and no one could have argued against it. If TG doesn't trust that the board in question is at the vendor's place and is unhampered, then why should they trust me when I say that the board in question is THE BOARD? Bottom line, there's no way of proving it, so I guess the only way to verify scores for any title, not just Donkey Kong, should be live. I believe that all ROM's can be tampered with to make the game play easier, so it stands to reason that no games should be verified unless witnessed by a ref and the board has been deemed legit through testing. I just hope that whoever claims the Donkey Kong title has to undergo this same process. I am by far one of the most easy guys to get along with, you can ask those who have met me, and for me to say that I am frustrated has merit. I've done everything TG has asked and am willing to ship THE BOARD to their tester right now. I flew down to San Jose with money (I did not have) to show my skills at their request. I was told over the phone that if I performed well, then the TG personnel would decide my score's fate. In 5 games, I reached the kill screen and showed I could play the game. What else could I have done to prove myself. If I was a fraud, would I have went down to San Jose? There was no mention of board testing at this time and I thought my score would stand since I did what TG asked. But then a mandatory board test was called to my surprise. All I ask is that the verification process be made clear up front and not made up as she goes. No one can expect to play any sporting game and be subject to shifting rules while the competitors are exempt from these rules. TG has been viewing several tapes of mine for almost a year now and could have said that a PCB test was mandatory long ago so that the appropriate steps could be taken. I respect what TG does and know it's a thankless job, but I think that this situation could have been handled better by TG as well. I am not trying to hide from any verification, I just want any competitor to have a board test as well, even if the board is believed valid. Components on a board can break unnoticed and alter play. Isn't that only fair? I have accepted the fact that TG has dismissed my score and I will probably have to replay, so the above is just to shed light on what transpired. People need to hear both sides of the story. Steve Wiebe SIDE NOTE: The following turned in high scores were done on a straight Donkey Kong board and video was turned into Robert T Mruczek Twin Galaxies Referee. These scores include 985,000; 999,500, and the 1,006,600. An example of a specific title that is covered under section 2.0.b is "Joust 2". 2.0.c - "Twin Galaxies recognizes that game titles which have a count-down time limit, hidden or otherwise, should allow a player the opportunity to maximize their score productivity within the limited time limit available, providing the tactic(s) employed by the player are not deemed banned by the Twin Galaxies Board of Referees. Therefore, tactics that are not deemed banned by the Twin Galaxies Board of Referees are allowable within the time limit constraints of normal gameplay for such titles." Examples of specific titles that are covered under section 2.0.c include, but are not limited to, "Top Skater", "Crazy Taxi", "SSX", "Donkey Kong" and "Donkey Kong Junior". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Tournament or Videotape Link Darren Harris D_Harris Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:16 pm Post subject: Tournament or Videotape -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I haven't had motivation to try to move up my Ms.Pac-man score at home, because a score submitted via a recording doesn't have the status of one achieved at an actual T.G. tournament. And since I already have the "tournament record", a higher submission via a recording would only erase the more credible score that I achieved at Funspot. I was just wondering what others would do in my position. If you already had a tournament record, would you even bother to try to submit a higher score from home? Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- D_Harris Darren Harris Link Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:36 pm Post subject: Tournament or Videotape -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To clarify the reason for this thread. Many feel that a live record at a tournament is more resistant to debunking, because it is less likely that someone will question whether the correct ROMs were used. ROMs cannot be verified via a recording. So if the rom issue becomes a bigger factor as far as score validity, then I'd have the tournament score to fall back on. But if the tournament score is replaced by a score that is recorded, then it may not be worth it to bother submitting one. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. ======================================================================= D_Harris Darren Harris Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:34 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greg Erway: awesome wrote: Yes. But with a recording you can watch for the little differences between ROMs and figure out what was used. In a tournament you have to know for sure what ROMs were present some 20 years ago possibly. Do you know exactly which ROMs are present at Funspot right now? I bet most of us don't on most of the games. The biggest argument for playing in public I've seen is that other players can walk up to the game after a record performance was made and play a game themselves thus proving, at least in their mind, there was nothing "fishy" with the game. Personally, when I record a game at home, I include on the video tape, uncut from the game recording, a shot around to the back of the machine, open up the game, show all the boardset, zoom in on the ROMs to show any labels that may exist still, show all the wires to prove that a computer feed somewhere wasn't feeding MAME or something like that to the monitor, go back to the front of the game and show the score is still there, turn off the game and back on to show the rug pattern on boot up (something that would be harder to mimic in a MAME setup). But when at Funspot I have little choice when it comes to shooting the inside of the game. I do however usually request if someone can open the game to show the settings on the tape. Usually if not too busy Gary has been willing to do this for WR games anyways. In my mind, the recorded game allows for more detailed investigation (even years after the fact if new information comes out). The tournament game does not. My first choice is to provide both. A video tape of a game played at a tournament. Darren Harris Wrote: Well, I've said many times in the past that I prefer video over everything, because recordings don't lie or forget. But who knows how the wind will blow with everyone else in the future? You're forgetting that a recording cannot tell you whether the ROMs of a game are altered. There are many "random" factors that can be changed in your favor by manipulating the ROMs. At a live tournament it comes down to the credibility of the contest holders, and those down the line who will say "I was there" help to reinforce validity. It is as good as impossible to use altered ROMs at a tournament. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ awesome, Greg Erway Location: Rochester, NY Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:06 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- D_Harris wrote: At a live tournament it comes down to the credibility of the contest holders, and those down the line who will say "I was there" help to reinforce validity. It is as good as impossible to use altered ROMs at a tournament. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. Greg Erway Wrote; The only problem is, people do not have perfect memories. There were some top players I used to play with back in the early 80's. They have never known anything outside the little arcade we used to play in. I recently was talking with one of these guys when I ran into him by chance. He swears that one of the other friends that recently passed away "Still hold the world record on Ms. Pac-Man at just over 3 million points." Now I know that guy seriously believes that. We all know here that isn't possible. But the mind plays tricks on you as you get older and the memories fade. Sometimes you actually can talk yourself into believe things that didn't happen. The video doesn't lie. At least in the video you can watch for "unusual" activity and compare it with statistical information to see if it falls under a certain number of standard deviations. I'm not saying its perfect (you and I both know of a recent situation). But you can rewatch videos, time things, keep accurate stats, compare them to other known examples and go from there. Your right that it is far less likely to find altered ROMs at a tournament (at least altered to gain an advantage). But it's not out of the question. And mistakes can happen with fixing boardsets by burning new ROMs. Really the only way to prove (and I use that term loosely here) is to do a checksum of the ROMs. Otherwise you can stick with tournament memories and arguments over who stole whose gym bag INSERTED (Roy S. missing gym bag-Quandary Missile Command) and who was standing where when a game was played. INSERTED (Chris Ayra-Quandary * Missile Command) When you get into games that roll over (Roy S.- Missile Command Quandary) you get into a whole other problem area at live tournaments as the same witnesses rarely see every roll-over and death. They could leave for a short while, come back to see you at a low score and easily accept your explanation that a rollover just occurred. I usually try to call over a ref to witness a rollover. But even with that it usually is a different ref for each rollover. They could get together and compare notes but do they? Thus my recommendation of video taping games played at tournaments when a record is highly possible. I'm not saying you have to record every second of every game. Just record the games you know you are trying for a record on. _________________ Gregory S. Erway #1 Tapper TGMS 9,100,175 31May03 #1 Tapper TGTS 1,821,325 01Jun02 **Beaten 05Jun05** #1 Rootbeer Tapper TGMS 1,959,200 28Jul86 #1 Wild Western 826,900 07Jun04 #2 Pepper II 505,980 13Jun04 #3 M.A.C.H. 3 - Bomber 353,200 22Mar86 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- D_Harris Darren Harris Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:10 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- With all due respect to your friends with bad memories, they would be considered in the minority. I know people who think they saw over 1,000,000 on Ms.Pac-man, but they are not well known gamers with any kind of credibility. Again it comes down to the credibility of T.G. which is why I keep coming up with ideas that are geared toward reinforcing that credibility. All of us at the Ironman Invitational back in 1985 remember a lot of details accurately.(That is, except Roy S.). And since the details are now assessed more carefully, I'll give T.G. the benefit of the doubt and assume that T.G. tournaments today will still have credibility in the future. And credible guys who were there and remember will be on the message boards saying "X" is what happened. Entertaining the highly unlikely possibility that a "mistake" happened in the ROMs when someone was fixing a board, and that the mistake was conducive to making a game easier for the player is way too far fetched. At home, one does not have all the positives I mentioned would exist at a taped event. And if altered ROMs were an issue at a tournament, they would be even more of an issue with a score achieved at home. Doing checksums on the ROMs of every game at a tournament is not plausible. For all intents and purposes we are playing on the same machines that the general public played back in the "Golden Age". I think that T.G. and Funspot have enough credibility for people to accept that. Nevertheless, I've only been stating why I understood why some might hold a score achieved at a tournament in higher esteem than one sent in on a videotape. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- King of Kong - The Movie, Moview Web Review Link -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- King of Kong (The Documentary) To Be Announced 2007 (Limited) Seth Gordon Unknown Steve Wiebe, Billy Mitchell, Walter Day, Nicole Wiebe, Steve Sanders, Robert Mruczek, Brian Kuh, Mike Thompson Picturehouse Documentary Not Available NONE A middle-school science teacher and a hot sauce mogul vie for the Guinness World Record on the arcade classic, Donkey Kong. In 1982, LIFE Magazine assembled the world's greatest gamers for a photo shoot that would become the center spread of their 1982 Year-In-Photos edition. Billy Mitchell, who would later be named the "Gamer of the Century," was one of the invitees. Mitchell, the World Record holder on Centipede, had been tracking the score on Donkey Kong, and knew he could take that title as well. In front of the 20 best gamers in the world, Billy scored 874,300 points, a record many thought would never be broken. In 2003, 35 year old family man Steve Wiebe, after losing his job at Boeing, found solace in Donkey Kong. Steve stumbled upon Billy Mitchell's record online, and set out to break it. He began perfecting his game every night after his wife and kids went to bed, and not only surpassed Billy's record, but ended up with a thought-to-be-impossible 1,000,000 points. A tidal wave of media coverage followed, and Steve Wiebe quickly became a celebrity in his hometown of Seattle, WA. He also rediscovered his love for teaching, and regained the respect of all who once doubted him. Meanwhile, back in Hollywood, FL, Billy Mitchell hatched a plan to reclaim his fallen Donkey Kong record... In the months that followed, Steve and Billy engaged in a cross-country duel to see who could set the high score that would be included in the 2007 Guinness World Records' book and become The King of Kong. Along the way, both men learned valuable lessons about what it means to be a father, a husband, and a true champion... discovering that you don't always need to win to be a winner. Quint falls for THE KING OF KONG at SXSW!!!!, King of Kong Review: Link
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Paul Dean,, Spy Hunter Champion, June 28, 1985

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[Coin-Op World Records]

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Biography Commentary Questions

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Tournament and Guinness Book Results From 1983-2004

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The Golden Era

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June 9, 2004 Walter Day states, "No Replay Necessary" for Paul Dean

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Paul Dean,, Spy Hunter Champion, June 28, 1985

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