Why "Pull" classic Era Guinness Book High Scores when no wrong doing is found?
The list of seasoned scores pulled in year 2002 are as follows: (Spy Hunter,
Star Wars, Joust, and Robotron).
Both Paul Dean with the 1986 Guinness Book World Record on
Spy Hunter and David Palmer with the 1986 Guinness Book World Record
on Star Wars are fighting to be put back onto the high score board
which they have been illegally removed from by Walter Day. The reason
these scores have been pulled is because Walter Day is not satisfied
that these scores are legitimate even after all of these scores have
been published several times over the last 20 years and have been
scrutinized by many referee's in the past in tournament settings.
I say that if you have no proof that there is wrong doing then why
go out of your way to upset these classic era players? It takes
considerable expense and time to fight off a score challenge.
It is up to the player to produce notarized documents, affidavits, witness
statements, and articles of achievement - after 20 years of time have
passed. All of the Twin Galaxies main judges must be called several
times in order to have a strong case. Alliances must be formed and
you must be a quick study of new rules and old as well as being current
on all aspects of the gaming industry.
Walter Day reports that the challenge process is in effect after 20 years
and anybody can be challenged. It doesn't matter if you haven't played
in 20 years or you have moved on in your life. You are supposed to buy
a video game, come out of retirement and tape your high score after
practicing every day in order to keep your score valid. Does this really
show that a score is valid or does it show that Walter Day is putting
up enough road blocks so that he can have his own modern high score
tournments and press events for these lower high scores.
Mark Alpiger, (Crystal Castles Champion) writes the following on his web page:
Another High Score is pulled: Star Wars score by David Palmer (funspot Threads)
David Palmer / birth date 05-01-1958, Auburn, CA (541)-401-3622 David Palmer (DEP)
wr's on Star Wars - TGTS (31,660,614), Star Rider (339,015), The Empire Strikes Back
(1,345,049), TX-1 (277,400); contender on Battlezone, Firefox (9000), Red Baron;
expert at all first-person perspective games.
contest results: 1984 Video Game Masters Tournament:
wr set on Firefox (9000), Tron
1985 Video Game Masters Tournament:
wr set on Battlezone, Red Baron,
Star Rider, Star Wars,
The Empire Strikes Back
wr kept on Firefox (9000), Tron
1986 Video Game Masters Tournament:
wr set on Star Wars
wr kept on Battlezone,
Firefox (9000), Red Baron,
Star Rider, TESB, Tron
1987 Video Game Masters Tournament:
wr kept on Battlezone,
Firefox (9000), Star Rider,
Star Wars, TESB, Tron
(Red Baron is not included above, as it
was not made part of the 1987 tourney)
world records: Star Rider, Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, TX-1
contender: Battlezone, Firefox (9000), Red Baron
David Palmer was one of the 80's players that highly impressed me, along will
Phil Britt, and, Donn Nauert. Obviously, his performance in the 1985 VGMT is
legendary, and the fact that all his wr scores up to that point were unbeaten
the next two year's tourneys, except for him topping his own Star Wars score,
is basically just as incredible. Many of his 'marquee' scores now are beaten,
but, the one that still stands alone as a unbelievable feat, in and of itself,
is his 31,660,614 points accomplished on Star Wars in the 1986 VGMT. He managed
this God-like performance on the tournament setting of 6 shields to start, with
no bonus shields. Unfortunately, this historic performance has been marred by
the 'powers-that-be' at Twin Galaxies - his score was pulled, since numerous
players have expressed strong doubt that it can be done (including Mark
Longridge, and Rob Mruczek). I've vehemently argued against pulling any
score, unless true proof, or incredibly strong anecdotal, or a preponderance
of, evidence, is given. The fact that many of his other scores have been
topped is strong evidence in and of itself that he was not submitting false
scores. In any case, I declare that his SW score is the true wr, at tournament
settings, until proven otherwise...
Funspot Article and [Threads Below:
Who will break David Palmers tournament Star Wars TGST World Record
score of 31,660,614pts.on July '86 on the following difficulty settings
Hardest. Start Units : 6. No Extra Shields.
The Below Posts Are Originally From Funspot
Funspot Telephone: 603/366-4377
PO Box 5428
Weirs, NH 03247-5428
Funspot Website Feedback:
Email:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
WALTER DAY - PUBLISHER / TWIN GALAXIES
Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 06:02 pm Walter Day Post to Funspot Classics
Regarding "Pulled" Star Wars Guinness Book High Score of
David Palmer from 1986 of which he is fighting to get score reinstated.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
For the record, here's how the David Palmer story goes:
When the book was finished by me in 1997, I saw the 31 million point
score by David Palmer and automatically presumed it was a marathon
score because of its high number. I deleted it because Palmer already
had a higher score, 108 million.
Many years later, Mark Longridge asked me why i disqualified the 31
million score. I said: "what are you talking about, he has a higher
score at 108 M!!" Mark said he believed the score was supposed to be
a TGTS score, not a marathon score.
The score was tabulated by the U.S. National Video Game Team after I
retired, so I had no working knowledge of the score. However, I felt
Mark Longridge was wrong at the time and never put any more thought
to it.
Now, David Palmer has surfaced and is preparing evidence. It appears
that I may have made a mistake in wrongly judging the score back in
1997. I appreciate the non-wavering attention other players have put
on this score, seeking its reinstatement. I would hate to see this
achievement not be recognized because of my mistake -- if it should
prove to be authentic.
Walter Day
-------------------------------------------------------------------
The Following is the Funspot Posts on the Hiatus Decision of
David Palmers High Score of July 1986
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 05:06 pm
-------------------------------------------------------------------
From Mark Alpiger's site:
http://www.classicarcadegaming.com/players/hof/
"Many of his 'marquee' scores now are beaten, but, the one that still
stands alone as a unbelievable feat, in and of itself, is his
31,660,614 points accomplished on Star Wars in the 1986 VGMT. He
managed this God-like performance on the tournament setting of 6
shields to start, with no bonus shields. Unfortunately, this historic
performance has been marred by the 'powers-that-be' at Twin Galaxies
- his score was pulled, since numerous players have expressed strong
doubt that it can be done (including Mark Longridge, and Rob Mruczek).
I've vehemently argued against pulling any score, unless true proof,
or incredibly strong anecdotal, or a preponderance of, evidence, is
given. The fact that many of his other scores have been topped is
strong evidence in and of itself that he was not submitting false
scores. In any case, I declare that his SW score is the true wr,
at tournament settings, until proven otherwise..."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
TJT
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 05:14 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where was this score achieved? Was it just one of those joystick magazine
scores. Those don't have any value in my book...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert T Mruczek
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 05:59 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello all:
Twin Galaxies has no credible evidence as to exactly how good David Palmer
was. No one seems to remember actually seeing him play, to begin with.
There are no videotapes of his scores. We have a forwarding address from
several years back but no responses to letters sent.
Considering the marathon score of 108M (why just 108, for starters ?)
anyone who could do 31M, allegedly, should have trashed the marathon record
hands down.
To Anonymous...and this is getting very tiresome, I have to admit, gamers
not using their real names...quoting Mark's site is fine for your purposes.
You just want to get some facts. However, as that site is not a TG affiliate
site, be advised that any quotes there may/may not be endorsed by Twin
Galaxies.
FACT - can a score of 31M be done ? Possible
FACT - who can do the score ? Well, I've seen Mark Boolman play and know
that he is capable of, based on his previous bests, easily 16M points.
He says he remembered playing in excess of an hour on a single shield.
Can he do this ? I believe so. Does this imply he can do it six
(actually 7) times in a row...not necessarily, but I believe he has
a good shot when at top form.
Can I do this myself ? Not sure. My previous personal best was 40-45
min (approx 4.0-4.5M) on a single shield...at best. Multiplied by 7
and adjusted nominally due to less shields per wave, and I would have
to play at my absolute best for nearly 5 hours to pull this off.
However, I do envision one day officially breaking 10M and hopefully
more.
One more thing to note, "Anonymous"...a lot of postings as of late
have been an attempt to discredit the score challenge and hiatus
assignment practices and policies of Twin Galaxies. We interpret
this as an attempt to subvert the process in favour of throwing the
issue into the court of public opinion.
The entire point here is being missed. The score challenge process
is at work...period. This includes a hiatus period, it includes
attempts to contact the gamer, and it includes a meaningful analysis
by TG consultants and experts and noted authorities.
Accusing or suggesting that "the powers that be" at Twin Galaxies
are doing anything with malicious or less than ideal intent is
preposterous and potentially slanderous in a court of law.
Further, the quote above was made by Mark Alpiger, a proponent of
another score also in hiatus that has no way of being verified.
I cannot help but believe that an individual can support such
an admittedly "god-like" performance when that performance was
never actually seen from beginning to end.
That being said, Twin Galaxies holds this score in "hiatus" mode
until such a time comes when, hopefully, David Palmer himself
can come out of video game retirement and prove that his score is
indeed plausible. Certainly Mark Boolman and I have a right to see
that he can attain such a score.
Now here is something you can directly quote me on. Do I believe
that Mark Boolman did 1-2 hours on one shield simply because he
told me so ? Yes...I saw him play and know his play style. Do I
believe that David Palmer can do same ? Not at this time...I never
saw him play a single wave at all...period.
Do I dispute all of his scores ? No. Clearly some are beatable,
clearly others are awesome but not unbeatable. This one happens
to be a standout far above the rest.
Twin Galaxies stands by it's decision to hold the 31M score in
"hiatus" status at this time. And if you need Walter Day himself
to co-verify this assessment, I will ask him to do so.
Robert
=============
TWIN GALAXIES POST IN YEAR 2003
10/6/03 - World Record Broken on Arcade Star Wars
Mark Boolman, of Bloomington, Illinois, has lifted the classic
arcade Star Wars record to new heights, breaking the record set
by Twin Galaxies' own Robert Mruczek a few years ago. "Scoring
3,947,108 using only 6 shields is an epic accomplishment," says
Walter Day, editor of Twin Galaxies' Official Video Game & Pinball
Book of World Records. "Boolman's feat," adds Day, "will definitely
receive prominent attention in the forthcoming record book." The
entire game was verified by Robert Mruczek, Twin Galaxies' Chief
Referee, who watched the entire videotape and then prepared an indepth
report, analyzing each milestone reached by Boolman in his quest for
a world record. To read the full report, go to Star Wars World Record
=================
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard M.
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 08:30 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Mruczek: Considering the marathon score of 108M (why just 108,
for starters ?) anyone who could do 31M, allegedly, should have
trashed the marathon record hands down.
Not an effective argument. After all, I have 1,306,100 on Gyruss
which is the current record, but my marathon record is not particularly
high, and certainly far off the 41M world record on that game.
In my case, I have always considered six hours to be enough on one
game, although I have had my chances to play longer.
-- Richard
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Scootie 'Scootie' Ahlers
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 09:45 pm
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Everyone,
Sorry to disagree with you Mark, but I feel that unless David Palmer's
31M score can be verified by TG standards; that they had every right
to "pull it". The score itself is suspicious since the current WR,
held by yourself, is not even 20% of 31 million.
As for David Palmer - he obviously did not show up for the tournament,
or have any sort of contact with any of the gamers on this forum.
For all we know, he may be living (if he still is living-that is!)
in Hawaii or Tahiti, and not have a care in the world.
'Scootie' Ashlers
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert T Mruczek
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 09:56 pm
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Mark B:
Funny that you should practice with one hand as well !! I did that
many times years back, mostly for the fun of it, but occassionally
out of necessity if I had to give one hand/arm a break.
I read that you agree that David Palmer is a great gamer. From his
reported results I would tend to agree, but in all honesty, I never
saw him play any of the games he has scores for, including Firefox
and Red Baron, for that matter.
As for my statement before..."Why 108M ?"...part of me just doesn't
understand how a player could leave a game like that...unless his
goal was 12 hours at 9M per hour, a pace I doubt neither of us
could pull off even if everything went perfect and we nailed a wave
11 tower pattern each and every wave the entire 12 hours.
As for 'Scootie' Ashlers' statement "For all we know...", I cannot divulge his
last known whereabouts for security purposes. Mark Longridge managed
to find him. Don't know how, but he did. I wrote 3x myself
(uncertified mail), and I think Mark may have at least once, and
not sure about Walter.
Robert
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Boolman
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 11:07 pm
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Boolman / Star Wars Champion Modern Era
funspot Photo 2004
Hey 'Scootie' Ashlers, I'm assuming you're disagreeing with anonymous' post
using MDA(Alpiper)'s site content. I'd love to meet David Palmer to talk shop
and listen to his side, but not having any known witnesses leaves
everything just as clouded. There are only two scores made by him
that I'm really curious about: SW and ESB(I gotta know how/see how
he gets through those asteroid sequences).
Robert, this is the first I heard of anyone finding the correct DP.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert T Mruczek
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 12:24 am
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Mark B:
Yes, Mark Longridge is QUITE resourceful, I have found. The address is a
PO box from 1999, but it is potentially still valid.
The asteroids sequence always left me questioning the game physics on
ESB...never quite could figure that sequence out to my satisfaction.
Just when I thought I had it down pat, turns out I didn't. Other than
the walker sequence, I never liked the game much...but I liked the
other yoke games (Jedi, Turbo Sub, Firefox) much better than ESB.
Robert
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
TJT
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 01:35 am
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
ESB score of 1 345 000?...That's not even much. A friend of mine
scored much more. Maybe he did 3-6M or something like that, gotta
ask him. Those Meteors, I used to just go one direction all the
time(corner?)occasionally moving out of the way of meteor. The trick
is to learn which one will hit you and which one not.
Nice game though.
ROJ had nice SW feeling also.Much more than later games.
Anonymous
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 03:33 am
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert,
I have PM'ed you on the TG forum with a more recent address and phone
number for the David Palmer in question.
Let us know if you successfully contact him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert T Mruczek
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 11:39 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Anonymous:
Will do. Thanks. But keep in mind, I cannot divulge his confidential
information.
Robert
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
To TG & Everyone,
Has anyone spoken to Steve Harris about the Palmer SW score? I heard that
he verified it when it was set by calling the arcade and speaking to
the notary. It's funny, everytime TG balls a score a TG member seems to
benefit (Robert M. w/the WR)- time for a change long coming.
Pardon my anonymous- don't want to end up like Roy (you know who)!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Boolman
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 05:44 pm
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
anonymous, I'm the current TG record holder, and I am in no way affiliated
with TG aside from being a non-paying member on their website. Robert
has already beaten DP's score on marathon by nearly 200Mil, and he
therefore deserves the marathon record.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert T Mruczek
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 07:31 pm
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello Anonymous:
As Mark Boolman will attest, I gladly relinquished the TGTS record to
him this Funspot after discussing with Walter. Mark's a better player than I
am, and I have no ego as to his being number one.
As for other scores on "hiatus", what OTHERS are you referring to, please ?
The previous hiatus status of "Spy Hunter" benefitted a non-TG-staffer,
same for the "Krull" record (by Steve, by the way), or the 12M on Tron
(and the 8M for that matter.
Why are you attempting to illustrate a conspiracy when none exists ?
You purport not to be like Roy, but the tactics are similiar.
Besides, I'll have you know that I spoke with Walter tonight, and Walter
himself is going to call David Palmer to discuss this. So the ball is
in play.
Just wondering why your interest in raising such suspicions as the Funspot
forum has been "Roy-free" for over 10 days, and this is the type of post
that Roy would have made.
Robert
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Longridge
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 07:51 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I understand where Mark Alpiger is coming from, but there is the challenge
rule. It's very unfortunate that so much time has passed and that's a
problem for which there is no solution.
Either you go with the challenge rule and allow a score to be removed,
or the player goes out of their way to prove themselves. The problem with
video games is there's no audience a lot of the time. Now compound that
with the fact that in the Guinness Era
there were 20 or more contest locations on the SAME WEEKEND and later on
the scores were phoned in.
Now some of those games went on for more than 8 hours. I can't expect
a judge to stand there for that length of time. The fact that the games
roll over and may last for 8 hours or longer makes it notoriously
difficult to judge the event.
In hindsight I would have picked games which can't be rolled over for the
purposes of the TG Guinness contest. Along with that have TG guys
eyeballing everything and then videotape it all of it. Pick a major city
for one weekend and move to the next major city.
The games should have been kept short, or failing that videotape the
entire thing. I remember the CNE had a Galaga tournament that was
time-limited, each player got 5 minutes. Starcade had an interesting
format of picking from a pool of games, but it was always time-limited,
usually you only got 40 seconds!
Another idea is to have a fixed tournament instead of an open tournament.
By this I mean you have a time where nothing is serious and all players
practise, then the real tournament starts and each player has a fixed
number of attempts to get the score (say 5 attempts per game). Everything
would be taped and a highlight reel is given to the media.
Games with analog controls are particularly well suited for a tournament.
Games like Marble Madness, Crystal Castles, Pole Position, Missile
Command would be great choices.
Mark
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert T Mruczek
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 11:05 pm
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello to "Anonymous":
So you know, Walter said to me moments ago that he did leave a message
tonight on David Palmer's answering machine. He will try again tomorrow
morning, so the wheels are in motion.
Now, considering how forthright I was in my over-the-phone discussion
today with another aspiring SW marathon and TGTS player, giving them all
the secrets I could think of, and considering how I voluntarily relinquished
my TGTS title to Mark Boolman this past month, I state formally and for
the record that I am personally offended at the accusation and allegation
that there is any behind-the-scenes wrong doing to intentionally benefit
a TG player whenever a title, this one in particular, is on hiatus status.
Hide behind the cloak of anonymity if you must, but your allegations
are slanderous and untrue, and that is speaking both as a gamer and as
a Twin Galaxies Board of Directors member.
Robert
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Juan Torres) jjt_defender
Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 07:56 pm
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A few questions:
1. What were David Palmers STAR WARS scores for
1984,85',86' & 87' at the Video Game Masters Tournament that he participated
with witnesses by TG representitive & some of the greatest classic arcade
game players as well as media & TV? Before his 31,660,614pts World Record
on Star Wars.
It would be interesting to know what David Palmer scored on Star Wars in
those tournaments & to compare it to his WR 31,660,614pts. & the accepted
TG Star Wars scores by 1.Mark Boolman/2.RobertMruczek/3.Donald Hayes
/4.Shawn Cram/ & a new challenger 5.Brandon Rickson almost 3-Mpts.tgst-60M+
marathon from Ground Kontrol.
One thing for sure the STAR WARS tgst records will get higher like 10 to
15 million points very soon as next Funspot 2005 tournament.
Here is the article from Mark Alpiger's site:
http://www.classicarcadegaming.com/players/hof/
Here are David Palmers qualifications:
David Palmer, Born 05-01-1958, Auburn, CA
Contest Results:
1984 Video Game Masters Tournament:wr set on Firefox (9000), Tron
1985 Video Game Masters Tournament:wr set on Battlezone, Red Baron,
Star Rider, Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back wr kept on Firefox (9000), Tron
1986 Video Game Masters Tournament:wr set on Star Wars wr kept on Battlezone,
Firefox (9000), Red Baron, Star Rider, TESB, Tron
1987 Video Game Masters Tournament:wr kept on Battlezone, Firefox (9000),
Star Rider, Star Wars, TESB, Tron(Red Baron is not included above, as it
was not made part of the 1987 tourney)
world records:Star Rider, Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, TX-1
contender:Battlezone, Firefox (9000), Red Baron
David Palmer was one of the 80's players that highly impressed me, along
will Phil Britt, and, Donn Nauert. Obviously, his performance in the 1985
VGMT is legendary, and the fact that all his wr scores up to that point
were unbeaten in the next two year's tourneys, except for him topping his
own Star Wars score, is basically just as incredible. Many of his 'marquee'
scores now are beaten, but, the one that still stands alone as a unbelievable
feat, in and of itself, is his 31,660,614 points accomplished on Star Wars
in the 1986 VGMT. He managed this God-like performance on the tournament
setting of 6 shields to start, with no bonus shields. Unfortunately, this
historic performance has been marred by the 'powers-that-be' at
Twin Galaxies - his score was pulled, since numerous players have expressed
strong doubt that it can be done (including Mark Longridge, and Rob Mruczek).
I've vehemently argued against pulling any score, unless true proof,
or incredibly strong anecdotal, or a preponderance of, evidence, is given.
The fact that many of his other scores have been topped is strong evidence
in and of itself that he was not submitting false scores. In any case,
I declare that his SW score is the true wr, at tournament settings, until
proven otherwise...
Thank You &
God Bless you
your fellow gamemaster (Juan Torres) jjt
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Boolman
Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 08:40 pm
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Juan Torres) jjt, On MDA's site, you can compare his prior 85 score(15+mil)
and the 31+ mil score in question--nearly double the prior year, with the 84
record going to Hewitt(14/15mil). I hope that David Palmer can be reached and
come provide a demonstration of his skills.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Juan Torres) jjt_defender
Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 10:18 pm
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walter Day & Robert Mruczek should contact Steve Harris/the players that were
there/newspaper-game magazine-TV reporters that were at the 1986 Video Game
Masters Tournament,when David Palmers scored 31,660,614 points on Star Wars.
1.Has anyone tried to contact Steve Harris who witnessed David Palmers WR
Star Wars score of 31,660,614 points in the 1986 Video Game Masters Tournament?
2.Doesn't Steve qualify to be a TG witness to verify David Palmers WR Star
Wars score of 31,660,614 points at the 1986 Video Game Masters Tournament?
Phil Britt
Phil Britt verified the 9-million point classic arcade game Spy Hunter
that was removed then put back,it only be fair if David Palmers record
was put back.
I'm sure there were some of the greatest classic arcade game players along
with Media/game magazines/newspapers/& Tv as well as a TG representative
there to verify David Palmers WR Star Wars score of 31,660,614 points in
the 1986 Video Game Masters Tournament. There had to be some pictures &
maybe video tape of the scores & the event.
Steve is well known & respected in the video game industry that Steve Harris
1 of the the Founders of Electronic Game Monthly/writer /editor for video
player magazine in the 80's; as well being a great Classic arcade game
player in his own right witnessed David Palmers WR Star Wars arcade game.
Steve Harris was 1 of the witnesses to David Palmers WR star Wars
score 31,660,614 points in the 1986 Video Game Masters Tournament.
Thank You & God Bless You
your fellow gamemaster (Juan Torres) jjt
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Juan Torres) jjt_defender
Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 10:41 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.Is phil Britt more respected than Steve Harris writer/editor/publisher/
video game player & founder of EGM ELECTRONIC GAME MONTHLY as well as
witnessing many classic arcade game world records & tournaments over
the years?
That Twingalaxies has alot of respect for Steve Harris a bussiness man/game
player & a well respected in the video game industry, as they do for Phil
Britt a video game player.
This from classicarcadegaming.com
05-29-2004 Update on the Twin Galaxies Spy Hunter score 'reinstatement'
It seems that this situation has become a saga, of sorts. Apparently,
Rob Mruczek jumped the gun, and announced to Paul Dean (and, myself, in
an e-mail carbon-copy) that his score was reinstated, before actually
getting a final 'thumbs-up' from Walter Day. Because of that, my news
story of the 18th (and a Funspot post the next day) was apparently a
surprise to the listed record holder for the game (Mark Little, who made
832,620 points in June of 2003), who not so happily announced the news
himself on the TG forums, here.
As you can see from the various replies, this is an interesting story,
and one that may serve to help everyone decide on a fair way of dealing
with questioned scores from the 'Golden Era'. A number of great ideas
have been thrown out (including some thought-provoking ones from Darren
Harris), but one thing that someone pointed out to me makes for a
curious situation - according to TG's own challenge rules
(see section 8.6, #4), a player whose score is being questioned must
(of course) be located for the challenge to be issued. One must
presume that if the player isn't located (as in most all of the cases
of the infamous 'pulled' scores), then the challenge, and the possible
take-down of the score, cannot proceed. Yet, it did.
Now, with the background in place, I'll move on to the reason for my
news item today. On his web site, Paul posted an important development
that detailed a conference call between him, Mark Little, and Walter
Day. The gist of it is that Paul will have time to recover from a
back injury that he is currently suffering, and then he will have to
beat Mark's score in order to 'prove' his abilities. If he does not,
then his score will be moved to a newly developed high score list
that will serve to separate modern scores (with their more stringent
proof), and classic era scores, where the proof was lesser. Only
time will tell the result of this situation, but, you can be sure
that it will be reported right here, as soon as things are resolved.
Good luck to Paul, and, I hope that everyone is ultimately satisfied
with the outcome of this important scoring issue.
05-18-2004 Twin Galaxies reinstates 'pulled' Spy Hunter score
I think this is a first - today, after a long-term effort by Paul Dean,
Twin Galaxies has reinstated his 1985 Spy Hunter score of 9,512,590,
which was accomplished on 06-28-1985 at the Upland Family Fun Center
in Upland, California, during the 1985 Video Game Masters Tournament.
The score was originally 'pulled' (even after appearing in print in
Walter Day's 1998 record book) a few years back, along with a number
of others from the VGMT contests of the mid-80's (namely: Star Wars,
Joust, and Robotron). I'll have more on the removal of all these
scores, in a future article.
Well, due to the effort on Paul's part, and thanks also to time spent
by Rob Mruczek, and apparently Walter Day himself, the Spy Hunter
score is back where it belongs - as a recognized true world record.
An even bigger thanks goes out to none other than a very famous CAG
HoF'er, Phil Britt, for his verbal confirmation of the veracity of
Paul's score, and his play, on that day in 1985. The full story on
this accomplishment (both the original game, and the efforts to gain
reinstatement) will be appearing on CAG very soon, so be sure to
check back to get fully informed on Paul's once-in-a-lifetime game !
In the meantime, you can check out a lot of gaming information on
Paul's web site, at www.spyhunter007.com.
Thank You for listening
God Bless
your fellow gamemaster (Juan Torres) jjt
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anonymous
Friday, July 02, 2004 - 02:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Juan Torres) jjt, per info contained in your link to the world record scores
in the 'gorf' post, DP's score was pulled back in 1987, as the listed
score is 160k. was this what Guiness printed??? Robert's marathon score
is listed, but not DP's at all...how long ago was the score pulled?
if it went out in 87, then let this issue rest in peace. Where did 160k
score come from? is it really 1.6mil??? did the guy die on wave 2 or
11(allowing for missing bonus points galore)???
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Juan Torres) jjt_defender
Sunday, July 04, 2004 - 04:44 pm
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Boolman said back in the 80's that he scored 15 million + points on
Tournament settings on Star Wars. Also, Robert Mruczek said he scored 24 +
million points back in the 80's on tournament settings on Star Wars. I
believe them both. They know it is posible to score 15-million points on
Star Wars.
That being said that more than likely that Mike Hewitt who scored
13,990,709pts. & David Palmer who scored 15,250,793pts. at a major
tourmaents in the 80's on tournament settings on Star Wars are legitment
WR for Star Wars.
More than likely these scores was legit ,by these great classic arcade
game players in the 80's. David Palmer competed in 5 major tournaments
back in the 80's with the worlds best known players playing in them &
that new about the tournamments.
David Palmers scores on some classic arcade games in the 80's :
1.Star Wars tournament settings scores 1st.31,660,614pts./2nd.15,250,793pts.
Star Wars marathon- 108,251,034pts.
2.Tron- 1,695,463pts.
3.Empire Strikes Back- 1,395,049pts.
4.Star Rider- 539,960pts.
5.Battle Zone - 10million points
6.Red Baron- 214,230pts.
7.Subroc-3d- 1,049,700pts.
8.Firefox- 707,790pts.
9.Tx-1- 277,400pts.
Thank You & God Bless You
your fellow gamemaster (Juan Torres) jjt
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard M.
Sunday, July 04, 2004 - 07:39 pm
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
When I was at Funspot last year (and maybe this year too) Mark told me
that he had scored 16M on tournament settings in the past, and I believe
that he did it. Unfortunatly one's best efforts aren't always in front
of a video camera or a Twin Galaxies ref, but those are the ones
that count.
Not sure what evidence David Palmer can give in defense of his 31M-point
effort. Even if he can't produce that evidence directly, he should
have enough skills in that game to just play it again using a camcorder
for the necessary evidence. For a player of his stated caliber, it should
be no big deal.
-- Richard
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Boolman
Monday, July 05, 2004 - 01:17 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard,(Juan Torres) jjt. I believe it was the 85 tournament at funfactory in
bloomington,il that I got the 16.9mil score, but the part that I have
always regretted is quitting that game with 2 shields left(3 hits
remaining to end game), but it was well over the 13or so mil score
listed at the time...but it was about closing time and not enough time
to play out completely...I should've kept going until the end, but was
overconfident having trashed the then current record and thought
that was high enough. Well, gotta go, MDA and I are going go do some
fireworks. Happy 4th everyone!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert T Mruczek
Monday, July 05, 2004 - 04:53 pm
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello everyone:
Never said I got 24M+ on TGTS. ALl I've ever stated was that within the
higher levels of my marathon game, a point came where I lasted on a
single shield for 40-45 minutes, which equates to 4.0-4.5M points.
I theorized that with 7 shields (6 plus zero status), that a 31M score
was conceivably possible...I just never saw David play before, so
wouldn't know his skillset one way or another.
Mark B is the better player as far as precision goes of the two of
us. However, after speaking with David himself, a player may exist
who is better than everyone mentioned here. A possibility exists of
a player getting 50-60M. David did not know who. Mark Alpiger thinks
he might know who, but this is a name I've never even heard of before.
Still, being a well known player has never been a pre-requisite to
be good at a title.
David is attempting to gather some information for Twin Galaxies on
his achievement. He also has the capability of a new world record on
"Battlezone" as well as destorying his "Red Baron" record, so our
hope is that he can come out to Funspot which has all three titles.
Right now nothing is committed, as he runs his own business, so we'll
see where things go from here.
Robert
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Boolman
Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 01:36 am
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That name would be: Sui Ming Louie. MDA is here with me now, and he
has been led to believe(personally, I don't) that that marathon score
from 86 was actually on TGTS and not marathon settings. His score is
actually listed under marathon on page 148 in Walter's book. When DP's
score was dropped, why weren't the previous record holder(s) scores
printed vs the ones that were? Also, anonymous suggests that DP's
score was pulled way back in the late 80's. Is this true? If not, when?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert T Mruczek
Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 04:16 am
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Mark:
This one is a Walter-level discussion.
As I understand it, years back, Walter himself found that he could not
believe the 31M on SW and believed it to be marathon, so he allowed the
108M to stand believing it was higher than the 31M.
That was done years back, the exact time only he knows.
As for the other score by SML, that one is news to me either in marathon
or TGTS mode. I really can't remember who else was listed in the book
off the top of my head besides David and myself, just like I can't
remember who is in 2nd on classic Missile Command after Victor Ali.
Just never bothered to remember them all. That's what the Book is
for, after all.
Anyway, Walter is aware that some typos existed when the last TG staff
(thru 2000 or 2001) screwed things up with clerical errors. I'll bet
you never saw the 6 BILLION that was on "Star Wars" marathon, huh ?
Or the 700 million on Stargate (off a decimal place or two). Most
of their mistakes were caught, but some ommissions were not, so
before the 2nd Book comes out, we have to scope out what was in
the 1st no longer in the database. Other than home console scores,
not much may have changed.
No way to tell what SML did from way back. I have to assume that 60M
was marathon, and if so, needs to be added back to the database,
but only Walter would have the info to do so.
As for Mr Palmer, we are hoping he can provide some documentation.
David said a notary was present, but that in and of itself is
insufficient. Bill Mitchell said that at one competition, a referee
asked for his score on DKJr, and Bill said "550K", and the ref wrote
down 5.5M. Bill, being the honest player that he is, quickly
corrected the referee after he saw that.
The point being, a notary would have only verified that the document
(score sheet) provided by the referee said 31M. The notary would not
have checked the settings as the referee or competition organizers
were responsible for that.
So, nobody is saying that David didn't do his score. I certainly have
ALWAYS said that a 31M score is conceivably possible. I just never
saw David play, that's all.
Thus, we wait and see where the reverification process goes. David
has Walter's number and my own.
I am also hoping that someone has information leading to a new
"Battlezone" board, as David said his isn't working and he still
owns that one. He also mentioned a unique strategy that I never
heard of whereby he could get the missile to encircle him for at
least 10-12 minutes, maybe 20 (I forget what he said exactly), so
it is the ideal game for a marathon as a break can be arranged easily
enough.
According to David, his personal unverified best is a whopping 23M !!
Lastly, and this will give Mike Stulir a new goal, David said his TG
world record of approx 200K+ is a shade of his unverified personal
best of 3M. Chew on that one for awhile. I am still stunned after
hearing this.
Robert
--------------------------------------------------------------------
MDARULZ
Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 12:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------------------
In the last paragraph above, Rob forgot to denote the game he was
referring to; it's Red Baron. David made 214,230 points in the 1985
'Guinness' summer tourney, and was later 'beaten' by a score of
330,150 points. Of course, if David has 3M+ as his personal best,
one can't argue about his prowess (in general) at first-person perspective
games. This would be a stunning feat, indeed...
Just a quick note on some of the ideas in this thread; as Rob and
Walter have noted in the past, and I agree, let's let TG pursue
challenges and verifications at their own fair pace, and know that
the results will be made known when TG is satisfied that their research
is complete and accurate. I will always have my view that scores
should only be pulled or put on hiatus in rare circumstances, but,
it is TG's right to make their own policies, and I respect their
*volunteer* work for the gaming community, in full. Let's support
their efforts with positivity, and with constructive (only) criticism.
I believe everyone should stand up and make their opinion known, but
(as I do the vast majority of the time), if you have strong opinions
that go against TG policy, I recommend a *single* e-mail to Rob M.
that tells what your 'two cents' is on that issue. TG will probably
respond as well or better to this, than to over-critical, and
(possibly) repetitive posts to the forums. Just some thoughts from
a long-time gamer that suppports both the players, and the
'powers that be'... - Mark Alpiger / MDA
-------------------------------------------------------------------
(Juan Torres) jjt_defender
Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 01:02 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert a question:
1.Have you talked to Steve Harris about who witnessed David Palmers
Star Wars scores of 31,660,614pts./2nd.15,250,793pts.? Steve could
verify his scores?
Now you have competition,that will help motive you Robert to higher
scores on Star Wars on tournament settings. The best comes out when
you have someone pushing you Robert & you have 6-major contenders,
maybe more.
I wish I had that many players competing against me for the Defender
& Stargate tournament world records.
These are the highest reported known scores on Star Wars on tournament
settings below:
The best Star Wars players in the world.
STAR WARS RANKINGS on tournament settings.:
1.Sui Ming Louie-64,071,484pts.R friend of
Mark Boolman
2.David Palmer-31,660,614pts.R
3.Mark Boolman-5,198,043pts.R
4.Robert Mruczek-4,044,601pts.R
5.Donald Hayes-3,327,828pts.R
6.Brandon Rickson almost 3-million pts.R at ground Kontrol
7.Shawn Cram-1,905,844pts.R
Good Luck Robert in getting back your tgst Star Wars record.
thank you &
God Bless You
your fellow (Juan Torres) jjt
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Boolman
Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 03:15 pm
------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Juan Torres) jjt, I don't know Sui Ming Louie; never met him, never talked to him.
MDA was at my house when Robert mentioned the score, which was news
to me at the time. MDA feels there's a possibility(even he's not
sure) that the score was on tgts. I don't believe it was on tgts
for even a second, but actually on marathon settings as it was submitted
and printed in the tgbowr. This issue is growing tiresome...why
even worry about 20 year old scores...track down witnesses...hell,
MDA was right next to me off and on during my game back then(including
when I ended it), and he doesn't recall what my score was, so why
should anyone believe anyone else(who witnessed a game 20 years ago)
can remember with any certainty what someone else's score/settings
were? This doubt factor will always remain, as people are human and
don't have perfect recall.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Juan Torres) jjt_defender
Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 04:12 pm
------------------------------------------------------------------------
My bad Mark. Sorry Mark.
Thank you for correcting me.
thank you
God Bless You
your fellow gamemaster (Juan Torres) jjt
-------------------------------------------------------------------
(Juan Torres) jjt_defender
Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 04:46 pm
-------------------------------------------------------------------
My previous message was for Mark Boolman. Sorry about that. MDA
1.Do you think David Palmerscored 15-million pts. on Star Wars on tournament
settings?
2.Has anybody talked to Steve Harris who witnessed David PalmerStar War scores
in the 80's?
One thing for sure it's going to be great battle between the 7 Star
Wars masters of the force in the next 2 years,on who will capture the
tgst Star Wars WR. And be crowned the Jedi Master of Star Wars.
I see scores in excess of 15 million points & beyond maybe eclipsing
the unverified score of 31,660,614 & maybe the incredible & unbelieveable
score of 64,071,484pts.
.David Palmer-
.Mark Boolman
.Robert Mruczek
.Donald Hayes-
.Brandon Rickson
.Shawn Cram
And if you guys can get in touch with
Sui Ming Louie which would a even 7 competitors for a chance at
Star Wars immortality & World Champion.
Good Luck & God Bless You
your fellow gamemaster (Juan Torres) jjt
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 06:24 pm
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Walter
Don't cave in. If his score of 31M was on TGTS - not marathon mode - then
he should be willing to put up or shut up.
Considering that that the current champions Mark Boolman and Rob M are
barely able to break 5M on TGTS, I am very suspicious of that 31M. Most
likely it's a marathon score.
Like I said, If David Palmer is that good, he shoud have no problem
repeating that performance.
'Scootie' Ashlers
PS. Unless David Palmerhas a videotape of his original performance - his score
SHOULD be disqualified!!
If you bend the rules for DP, then you should do the same for Roy,
or anyone else that has a contested score from back then.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Scootie' Ashlers
Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 06:26 pm
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
To Mark Longridge...
Make sure you get your facts straight. This guy David Palmersounds like another
Roy in the making!
'Scootie' Ashlers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard M.
Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 07:02 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Boolman mentioned to me that in the 1980s he scored 16M points; I believe
he also posted on the Funspot forum that he wasted his last two shields in
that game. Although I have no way of verifying his claims, I do believe that
he did it. Why? Because he is a very good Star Wars player now. The fact
that he only scored 5.1M in Funspot in 2003 merely means he is out of practice,
but it's an impressive score anyway (only a world record!)
If David's 31M was a marathon effort, why would it even be an issue after he
had a verified 108M marathon score? If Mark Boolman can score 16M in
essentially four shields, a score of 31M on six shields cannot be that
far-fetched from a truly top player.
Therefore my take on the situation (and yes I might be wrong) is that David
Palmer actually did score 31M points on TGTS settings. The fact that Mark
Longridge seems to think so too adds considerable credence to the score.
I also think he may be out of practice and may be reluctant to try to
repeat the performance and wind up falling short.
So David is trying to gather evidence for his 31M TGTS effort in order to
get his score reinstated. Otherwise, he may be practicing on Star Wars in
case he cannot defend his score; even if David is rusty he should be able
to take a run at the world record if his 31M score from the past is legit.
-- Richard
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Scootie' Ashlers
Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 07:31 pm
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Richard
I still say that David Palmer should come out of hiding, and either put
up or shut up.
As for Mark Longridge - unless he ACTUALLY WITNESSED DP's 31M score, OR has
a VIDEOTAPE of the performance - he should either shut up, or persuade Dave
to "repeat" his "suspicious" stellar SW performance. By being so vocal on
DP's questionable score - Mark is casting suspicion upon himself too!
Is David Palmer"paying off" Mark Longridge to be has spokesperson?
If you are going to bend the rules for one then you might as well bend them
for all!!
Sorry Richard - I don't mean to offend anyone here - but what is the purpose
of having "rules", if nobody abides by them??
'Scootie' Ashlers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Scootie' Ashlers
Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 07:42 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To Everyone
Let's put this issue to rest once and for all....
I was a GREAT Crazy Climber back in the early 80's. I had NO PROBLEM making it
as far as the ninth or tenth building on a good game. I am almost positive that
I have scored over 500,000 on SEVERAL OCCAISIONS back then.
Unfortunately, I have no way of PROVING it - since I did not videotape anything
back then - and did not even know that TG existed, at the time.
So INSTEAD OF BEATING AN OLD HORSE TO DEATH - like certain people do on this
website; I am actively playing Crazy Climber again - planning to beat the
WR - which is currently 478,000.
Once I start scoring over 300,000 - I plan on bringing videotaping equipment
to FS - so I can send it to TG and make the score "official".
'Scootie' Ashlers
PS. The fact that Dave chooses to "hide" and not post on any forums doesn't
help his case any either!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anonymous
Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 08:22 pm
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I won't presume to speak for Mark Longridge, but I have spoken to him recently
about the David Palmer situation and his position as stated to me is being
*grossly* misrepresented in this thread.
Until he posts for himself it would be best to drop that part of the discussion.
And I am not posting my name because I absolutely refuse to get involved in
this nonsense.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard M.
Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 08:29 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Longridge is one of TG's top referees. I submitted a couple of Gyruss (MAME)
scores to him about a year or so ago. I don't know how his may be involved in
David's 31M Star Wars score, but he obviously has some knowledge of the event
based on Walter's comment to start this thread.
Even though I think the 31M score is probably legit and 'Scootie' Ashlers doesn't, the
score must still be verified somehow. It would be preferable for the verification
to be by videotape, but other methods are also available. Nowhere in my prior
post did I say anything about bending rules.
-- Richard
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Boolman
Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 08:31 pm
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Scootie' Ashlers, I don't think David Palmer has been hiding, just wasn't easy
to contact.
He most likely had no idea anyone even cared anymore. I won't berate him or anyone
else whether they play again or not, but as you say, rules are rules, therefore,
if there has been a challenge issued, then he must play again and do somewhat
well to keep the score. It would be silly to assume that he, I or anyone
could still do just as well today as they did 20 years ago, unless he's been
actively playing all these years. DP, or anyone in a similar challenge situation
should be given at least six months to practice before having to prove themselves.
I've been playing(rarely lately) since march 03, and I'm still at a fraction of
my best score. I certainly wouldn't put him in Roy's league, as he was unaware
of the controversy until just recently and hasn't annoyed/berated anyone about
it.
Richard, I believe you've summed things up quite well. I never doubted the score
until MDA contacted me in Dec 02 and told me the old scores were out, hadn't
even thought about it for years. I believe that scores in that range are
possible, just unlikely many could reach that skill level. I'd still like
to see him come play. Just as my old score can't be proven, his is also
clouded by the passage of time. David Palmershould be allowed enough time to practice
for the challenge; at least till the 05 tournament. Does this sound fair?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Scootie' Ashlers
Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 08:45 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Mark & Richard
Yes, it does sound fair - he should be given the time to practice.
I still feel that the "original" score of 31M should be disqualified, unless
it can be verified by one of TG's acceptable methods of verification. In this
case - since we are talking about a 20+ year old score - a videotape would
probably be the only acceptable method - since memories do cloud with time.
I doubt if any current TG ref actually witnessed that performance. In the
unlikely event that a former TG ref may have witnessed that score, I feel it
is only fair to have a "statute of limitations"(10 years sounds reasonable)
on a score THAT old - meaning that the score SHOULD be dropped since (as I
stated above) memories do cloud over with time.
'Scootie' Ashlers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard M.
Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 08:51 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark,
I think that allowing him until June 2005 to practice on Star Wars seems fair.
'Scootie' Ashlers,
If no videotape is available, but there is a signed document with David
Palmer's signature and the signature of a Twin Galaxies referee at
the time verifying the score, and verifying that Star Wars was on
TGTS settings, then the score should stand.
-- Richard
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Scootie' Ashlers
Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 09:09 pm
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Richard
Sounds fair enough.
'Scootie' Ashlers
PS. Given the passage of time & age - if Dave can score at least 10 Million
on TGTS (within the next month)then the score should stand.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Scootie' Ashlers
Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 09:19 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I meant to say that if there is no ref from the time or any document, that Dave
should be allowed to do a "challenge" within the next month by acheiving at
least 1/3* of his fromer, "alleged" hi score, and if he can pull off a score
of at least 10M, then his former score should be allowed to stand.
If Dave can score 1/2 of his former score(15.5M) - that would be even better!
'Scootie' Ashlers
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walter Day
Monday, July 12, 2004 - 10:53 am
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Palmer was not hiding, he just moved on with his life and didnt know
that competitive gaming had taken on a new life.
He moved to another state and no one knew how to contact him.
Walter Day
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Scootie' Ashlers
Monday, July 12, 2004 - 11:29 am
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Walter
Sounds reasonable enough - Just one question though..... How old was David Palmer
back then? I am assuming he was somewhere between 10-20 at the time of the
"31M performance".
'Scootie' Ashlers
PS. What's the use of playing a game if you don't play by the rules???
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Scootie' Ashlers
Monday, July 12, 2004 - 11:48 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Everyone...
Let's play a game...
Guess who Anonymous is??
1. Rob M.
2. Adam "Zotmeister" Wood
3. Mark Spaeth
4. (Juan Torres) jjt Defender
5. Roy Shildt
6. None of the above
I am not going to give the answer here, but it is pretty obvious - judging
by the style of writing - who the anonymous poster is!
'Scootie' Ashlers
PS. Hint - This individual is someone who rarely (if ever) posts as anonymous.
And it is definately NOT Roy. Hope I haven't made it TOO easy!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert T Mruczek
Monday, July 12, 2004 - 12:01 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi 'Scootie' Ashlers:
1st - Anaonymous is definitely not I, let's be clear on that one.
2nd - David Palmer is now over 40 years old. He would have been 25-30 at the time
3rd - Once again, no one disputes that 31M is possible...it's just a matter
of David providing proof that he himself did so. Clearly both Mark B and I
believe that a score of 31M is do-able.
4th - David Palmer was not "hiding"...he was just difficult to contact until now.
We should now afford him the time it takes for him to gather his supporting
documentation at his convenience.
Robert
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Zotmeister
Monday, July 12, 2004 - 12:01 pm
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm innocent. I have no contact with Mark Longridge. - ZM
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Scootie' Ashlers
Monday, July 12, 2004 - 12:21 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Rob & Adam
I have always been fair, and I agree that Dave should be given time to get back
into top form.
SW is a demanding game that requires skill and FAST reflexes - much like Crazy
Climber - one of the titles that I am pursuing a record on.
One more thing Rob..... Are there any downloadable versions of those online
Looney Tunes games. I especially liked Porky playing the role of Crazy Climber
in that "Pizza" game.
'Scootie' Ashlers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Longridge
Monday, July 12, 2004 - 04:27 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi folks,
Just to clear things up a bit...
I knew the David Palmer score of 31 million on Star Wars was supposed to be
on TG settings. David himself made that claim in Top Score magazine, saying
this was the score he was most proud of, during his interview with Steve Harris.
I knew of the earlier score of 13 million by Mike Hewett and one year later
David Palmer got over 15 million. My understanding was that all of these scores,
13, 15 and 31 million were all set on 6 shields, Hard difficulty as shown in
the Blue Books and also the earlier White Book.
I was NOT present when David Palmer played Star Wars. I have never had any
direct contact with DP. My position has always been the same, to encourage
old-timers to come forward and play. It would be utterly impossible for me
to give the 31 million score on Star Wars a thumbs up.
Originally I was skeptical about the 31 million on Star Wars, but on later
reflection I thought "If I accept 13 million as true, why not 15 million?".
I was never 100% sure about it. I can only say that a few Star Wars players
expressed disbelief in the 31 million, hence my skepticism. Although skeptical,
I do not say that the 31 million score on Star Wars is impossible.
Unfortunately the level of proof was under what I would like to see for a
World Record... and yes you can say that about a number of records, or
about any high score that was not on video tape or witnessed in person.
As I have stated before, because of the format of the Guinness era contests
it was NOT possible for there to be TG witnesses at all contest locations.
I was only present at my own contest location in Oshawa Ontario in 1985.
I did have some phone conversations with Steve Harris, and yes I expressed
my concerns about a few scores. I don't see how anyone could be 100%
certain about the game settings. Even if it was all on video tape, I still
don't see how people could be certain about game settings... especially
games like Robotron and Joust that use CMOS instead of dip switches. I
now feel that any video tape of those games should include a shot of the
settings screen.
Given the comments of Mark Boolman about his scores and how David Palmer
studied simulator games with great alacrity, I am definitely _less_ skeptical
than I was before, but I can't give it a thumbs up OR a thumbs down.
Mark
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard M.
Monday, July 12, 2004 - 07:29 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think Anonymous was 'Scootie' Ashlers. (Otherwise how would he know who the
poster was?)
As for David Palmer, I'm curious what kind of evidence he can present to Twin
Galaxies, but I would really like to see him bring his best moves to next year's
dance (a.k.a. Funspot 2005.) Since it sounds like he has really been out of
the gaming picture for a number of years I think he should be allowed that much
time; I hope he owns a Star Wars or can otherwise practice on one.
-- Richard
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anonymous
Monday, July 12, 2004 - 07:44 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Palmer played by the rules and EARNED his score! TG verified his score
and it was sent to the Guinness Book of WRs. Is it his fault that TG failed to
maintain proper verification? If there is not any compelling evidence to show
that his score is fake it should stand!
Mediocre players subconciously enjoy seeing a great score go down in the same
jealous way they violently oppose great spirits.
Walter Day should be commended for his courage to admit his mistake and
hopefully to uphold Davids' meritorious effort.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Scootie' Ashlers
Monday, July 12, 2004 - 10:19 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Richard
Sorry to disappoint you but it wasn't me.
As you stated above - as long as David Palmer has a videotape, or a TG ref from the
time to verify his score, then it should be allowed to stand.
'Scootie' Ashlers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Juan Torres) jjt_defender
Monday, July 12, 2004 - 10:24 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Scootie' Ashlers here are some of David Palmers verified classic arcade game records.
A question has anyone asked Steve Harris founder of Electronic Game Monthly who
witnessed David Palmers 31 million pt.tgst Star Wars arcadegame. in the 80's?
1.Star Wars- 108M Marathon
2.Tron- 1,695,463pts.
3.Empire Strikes Back- 1,395,049pts.
4.Star Rider- 539,960pts.
5.Battle Zone - 10million points
6.Red Baron- 214,230pts.
7.Subroc-3d- 1,049,700pts.
8.Firefox- 707,790pts.
9.Tx-1- 277,400pts.
Thank You
& God Bless You
your fellow gamemaster (Juan Torres) jjt
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert T Mruczek
Monday, July 12, 2004 - 10:29 pm
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To Anonymous (Monday, July 12, 2004 - 07:44 pm)
For starters, did you NOT read what Walter said in his 1st thread..."The
score was tabulated by the U.S. National Video Game Team after I retired,
so I had no working knowledge of the score. "
With that in mind, how is TG at fault for not having the documentation ?
Robert
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Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 10:30 pm
C3PO
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I agree, David Palmer earned his score and it was/should've been properly
documented by Walter in 1986.
Hey Dave, whether you play again or not you deserve your score. If Twin
Galaxies fails to give you credit I and many others will boycott TG and
seek our entertainment elsewhere.
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Gregory Erway
Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 08:17 am
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Umm, C3P0, did you not read Roberts post?
Walter said, "The score was tabulated by the U.S. National Video Game Team
after I retired." You see, Walter retired from TG BEFORE Davids score.
Someone else was doing the record thing during those years. The U.S.
National Video Game Team is the one that reported the score by David.
When Walter came out of retirement to get TG going again, he included
scores from a number of sources. This included any TG scores he still
had, the scores from the U.S. National Video Game Team, and other tournament
scores he could get his hands on. Unfortunatly he was not in control of
the verification process during those years. He is simply saying he
thought the score was incorrectly entered into the wrong category. He
is investigating moving it to the right category if enough proof the
score was played under game settings that match up to TGTS.
If David really did get that score while playing under rules that match
TGTS then I agree he deserves his score. BUT, I'm pretty sure there are
a number of scores out there that are higher than recognized world records
but were not properly documented, not reported to TG at all, played
under slightly different game settings, used cheats, etc. Walter has
a tough job to do to keep database integrity. There is NO WAY the
scoreboard will be perfect. But I for one am greatful for TG's willingness
to try to make the scoreboard as perfect as they possibly can. Fake scores
have made the database in the past, typo mistakes have been made, etc.
The ability and willingness of TG to allow challenges and to investigate
each score is very refreshing. At least I know they are trying to do
their best.
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Robert T Mruczek
Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 01:47 pm
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Hello to C3P0:
Glad you did not read my post...it supports my theory that there are
those that post here with an agenda rather than first gathering all
the facts.
As Greg Erway stated, and as Walter and I pointed out, the scores were
submitted to an entity OTHER than Twin Galaxies. Eventually, when the
data reached Walter, whatever that data might have been at the time
(I don't know, I wasn't there), a decision was made, a judgement call,
and things are where they are now.
I'm sure that all of us would really like to know why, at this
particular point in time, and due to this particular score situation,
are you threatening a "boycott" of TG ?
The score is only coming into light now as David Palmer has finally
been contacted and is gathering whatever documentation he can for TG.
I previously posted and asked that everyone afford David the respect
of doing so at his convenience.
Threatening the TG organization with a "boycott" by forcing it to go
against it's own standards and policies is an agenda...plain and
simple. Those who state this MUST know by now what the verification
standards now in place are. We cannot simply by word alone accept
this score, but we are anxious to allow David to have the opportunity
to present his evidence.
As I've stated MANY a time, the score itself is not the
question...it's the player. A talented player though he may be,
he still must abide by TG documentation requirements. I am sure
that the score itself is possible, and have stated as much many
times in this forum.
You have all seen the ramifications of jumping the gun, recently,
with a score reinstatement process, plus what happens when the
internal TG verification process is brought into light of non-TG
staff members.
Such matters are best kept internal by TG. ALl gamers are given
their FAIR TIME within which to present their documentation. I'm
sure none of you would wish a gamer to have their name dragged
through the forums alongside wanton speculation and conjecture.
Announcing or threatening a "boycott" is clearly a reactionary
response. This is not a pro-active response at all. Are ANY of you
"Anonymous" posters attempting to see what can be done to assist
David in his gathering of the necessary documentation ? Some say
"call Steve Harris". You would be surprised to know that he already
WAS asked this question...more than 2 years ago...when he last
spoke with a TG associate. Such information is kept internal and
TG confidential as it it, quite frankly, none of the general gaming
community's business. Out of respect for the gamer in question,
and the score re-instatement process or challenge process, any and
all supporting discussions and documentations do not have to, by
default, be shared with the general gaming community, for several
reasons.
If a threat of a "boycott" is the reaction that we get when we DON'T
reveal all aspects of a challenge or reinstatement process, God only
knows what type of commentary would be generated if we DID share all
information. I'm afraid to consider it.
So, to "C3P0" (and I believe I know your true identity...it's quite
obviously one of three people) and anyone else who shares his
sentiments, if you want to organize a "boycott", then by all means,
do so. TG can't stop this. We present ourselves as trying our very
best at all times. Amazingly, considering that this is all volunteer
work, at no salary or compensation costs, all we get is negativity
from yourself and a few others who have gripes against TG.
Bottom line is this...if you don't like TG, that's your pre-rogative.
Just don't use Gary's forum to air your grievances...I think he
already stated as much in an earlier post.
Robert
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Richard M.
Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 05:05 pm
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This thread is getting way too political.
All I am going to say is, if David Palmer actually scored 31M on TGTS
settings, I hope his evidence stands up and his score is recognized.
If the score is fraudulent, I hope that TG's policies will block the
entry of that score.
If C3PO wants to boycott, let him; just don't make Funspot's forum the
place to vent out your views on Twin Galaxies.
Anonymous #1 (who I now suspect may be Walter) said he was not getting
into this nonsense. A very good idea. I may lurk, but I this is my last
post on this thread.
-- Richard
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Robert T Mruczek
Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 06:17 pm
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Hi Richard:
Nicely stated. All of us, especially myself, are hoping to receive David's
documentation. I truly don't believe the score itself is fraudulent...just
want to do the job TG requires as far as proof goes, that's all.
No clue who "Anonymous #1" is. I just know it's not me !!
Robert
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R2D2-TG-FU
Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 10:35 pm
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When David Palmer played he played by the rules. He is legally beholding to
the standards and policies that were in place at the time and none other!
His record was appropriately verified and published by Guinness. There are
so many errors in Walters' Book it is obvious that he didn't even bother
to look at copies of the Guinness Book of WRs. before he published. Should
David pay for that?
It is ridiculous and unfair to expect a 40+ guy to buy a machine, train,
tape &? travel to reverify a score. If TG wants more proof they should have
accounted for that then, not 20yrs. later.
I support a possible boycott if Davids' score is not reinstated and this is
relevant to Funspot because they accept scores from TG.
I also don't bother to read long winded posts from TG guys trying to cloud
the issues in their favor.
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Robert T Mruczek
Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 10:58 pm
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To Roy or Mark (and I know which of the 4 would post this):
I know that one of you two are the persons responsible for this post. No doubt
in my mind, now. The prose is a giveaway, the stance identical, and the gripes
are the same.
This is not JJT...not his prose style.
Since your most recent gripe is that TG staffers "cloud the issues" in their
favour with long posts, I'll be brief.
1st - did anyone SAY that David had to buy a machine and play...NO. get your
facts straight
2nd - the "policies and standards" in place at the time were at a NON-TG
competition. Do you KNOW what standards were in place ? Do you KNOW about
the notary public whose sole purpose was to basically sign off on whatever
the referees told them to ? Did you KNOW that there were instances where
previous competition referees made egregious errors ? Do you KNOW for a fact
that same didn't occur here ? NOPE, didn't think so.
3rd - Good. Support your boycott along with the other names you might be
inclined to use. I do hope Gary knocks your post down because couching that
phrase within your member name is circumventing his site's decorum policy,
and I assume there is one.
So...Roy, or the Mark that I think is posting this...please, post on the TG
site why don't you. Gary may not be inclined to take legal action for
incitement, but I will.
Robert
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Anonymous
Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 11:02 pm
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"I also don't bother to read long winded posts from TG guys trying to cloud the
issues in their favor."
Translation: I don't like listening to other people because they will prove
me wrong, with their "intelligent arguments" and "realistic views". My brain
just can't compete with that so I choose to ignore.
Go ahead and boycott, make yourself a little protest sign and walk around town
with it. No one will miss you.
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Walter Day
Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 11:46 pm
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I have read everything above and see that the heavy weight of this issue has
truly been a burden for many to carry. I am sorry that this is so difficult
for some to grapple with.
I can't help the issue out too much because the score was never TG's
responsibility. I retired in late 1985 and the TG Scoreboard no longer existed
This score resulted in 1986 from the efforts of Steve Harris' group,
following whatever rules and policies they implemented.
This score was never submitted to TG. TG didn't exist then. Who can be certain
under what rules it was performed? Who knows if there was ever paperwork, or
notaries witnessing this particular score?? Maybe somebody who attended the
event could conclusively verify if such efforts had been made!
When compiling the book, I saw the lists of scores from the 1986 contest, and,
on faith, included them in the book. But the Star Wars score was not designated
a 6-shield score and I never suspected for a minute it could be anything other
than a marathon result.
So, it was not included because David Palmer had a higher score which usurped
it.
I am at a loss as what advice to give now because it isn't a score that was
generated by our efforts and was never verified by us.
However, I appreciate the efforts of the many anonymous posters on the Funspot
forum whose passion for truth make them stand up for what they believe is right.
Walter Day
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'Scootie' Ashlers
Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 11:53 pm
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To all...
Dave is obviously going through great lengths (judging by this thread) to provide
TG as much info as possible for TG. I now feel that his score should be accepted.
If not, he should be given at least a year(not 6 months) to practice and get
back into "shape". Dave probably has a family and works full time - and six months
doesn't seem fair enough.
I also feel that there is one other score from "way back when" that perhaps,
deserves a second look. The score I am referring to is a certain "1.6 million" in
Missle Command.
'Scootie' Ashlers
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Rick
Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 12:04 am
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'Scootie' Ashlers,
I cannot understand why you think this score should be accepted by TG. Walter was
not there, TG was no longer tracking scores and, the score was "verified" by a
completely different organization. IMHO, although this is an impressive score,
it would not be right for one organization to accept a score verified by someone
not associated with them.
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Robert T Mruczek
Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 12:12 am
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Hello everyone:
Dave has, should he decide to do so, as much time as he needs to get back into
shape. On the average, he is still, if the score is legit, a great player, but the
level of precision necessary to attain what he previously is reported to have
done must be light years from where he is now...certainly more than a few hours
of practice.
Walter is executing good judgement in waiting to see what will happen next.
Robert
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Vidiot
Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 08:17 am
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It's the "Twin Galaxies Book of World Records" so it should only contain records
witnessed or verified by someone from Twin Galaxies. Hey kids, it's not that hard
to understand. If you want scores like this included then write your own book,
"Video Game World Record Scores... I Think." I'm sure Roy and JJT will be glad to
help you.
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'Scootie' Ashlers
Friday, July 16, 2004 - 01:08 am
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Hey Rick
You do have a good point there but if Dave can provide documentation from a TG
ref at the time, who may have witnessed at least a part of the game, and certainly
the end score; then should his 31M score not be allowed to stand?
'Scootie' Ashlers
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Mark Boolman
Friday, July 16, 2004 - 02:08 am
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'Scootie' Ashlers, it is impossible for a 'TG' ref to have witnessed the
game in question, as TG did not exist at the time of the game.
Droid duo, obviously you've lost your groin bearings or you'd use your real
names. Walter and the TG staff are volunteers that don't have to do this at
all; what have you done for the community? Should you decide to implement your
boycott, please include this forum as well. I'm the one who's record is at stake
here. I'm willing to wait and abide by Walter's decision, so why aren't you?
Have you even met Walter? If you have, then you will know that he is a kind and
gentle man who's just performing a free service to the best of his abilities.
Why run him down for that? Walter is just asking for proof, which may amount
to taking the score on faith from a member(s) of another now defunct group. Is
that fair?
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kiss my Wookie
Friday, July 16, 2004 - 03:22 pm
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Hey Mark:
Supposing that Walter and TG did not have any authority over the 1986 contest
results, David Palmer should have still held the record 15mil. from 1985. Funny
how you and Robert M. ended up trading it off. More TGBS I think.
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TJT
Friday, July 16, 2004 - 04:01 pm
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It's not allways so simple to tell which score is for real and which one is
cheat/joke.
This is especially true at games which have SCORE ROLLOVER. People have submitted
scores with a PHOTOGRAPH in the past, witnesses who are not experts are everywhere.
Some of TG's scores are joystick magazine scores, or vice versa.
It's better to remove a score that is suspiciously higher than current top players
can do(or think what is possible), than to keep a record that is not true. Makes
at least competition more motivated.
Also if a score is doable, does not prove it's really done.
Propably Palmer's score is ok, because he does try to do something getting it
re-instated. If he would have come up with a score 20 years ago...He propably
wouldn't see any point going through trouble proving something he never did. People
do grow up.
Even you, kissawookie can challenge a score if you have such doubts. That is a
good thing. Trying to keep competition fair. Atleast someone is trying. It's
much better than to keep every score ever seen...no matter if true or not.
Thanks,
TJT
I'd rather kiss a wookie!
...That can be arranged...
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Mark Boolman
Friday, July 16, 2004 - 06:22 pm
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Hairy ape, The 15mil is ok, just as long as I'm credited for my 16.9 mil score.
The score in question was placed at a tournament after the '85 VGMT that I
played in, but in time to replace my score in Guiness...at least that's how
it seems to have happened; I never received confirmation one way or the other
from TG...Perhaps because TG went under soon afterwards...but I did get a nice
TV as first prize at Fun Factory in Bloomington, IL; and met MDA. FYI, The score
pulling occurred long before I started gaming again(03) I never met Walter,
Robert M in person, and I only spoke once via 3-way call to Robert 1 time prior
to Funspot 04. I felt good vibes from both of them(and most all players). If
Walter decides to accept the score, then I'm sure that it's based on some proof
that he finds acceptable. Either way, it won't bother me...much.
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Anonymous
Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 06:19 pm
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...at least that's how it seems to have happened;..obviously YOU DON'T
KNOW--MARK!!;- sorry but your assumptions don't count.
Robert M. got credit for a WR 4mil. and David never got credit for the 15mil.
reported by TG in 1985.
Hey WALTER!, let's hear your explanation for that one!
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Robert T Mruczek
Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 07:09 pm
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To Anonymous:
As with the 36M, the 15M was also believed to be at marathon settings, thus the
108M stood as per Walter as David's score. It's that simple.
The 4M that I set in Nov/03 was viewed by approx ten people at Funspot. The 5M
that Mark B set in May/03 is now honoured by TG and will shortly be entered to
the TG scoreboard once time permits and definitely before the 2nd book is ready
for final editting.
As for David, he is busy getting his documentation together.
If you, Anonymous, care to discuss with Walter in person, call him at
(641) 472-1949 or E-MAIL to "Walter@TwinGalaxies.com". He has nothing to hide.
Robert
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------------------------ THREAD TO BE DELETED -------------------------------------
The Moderator Has Been Upset By The Whole Thread And Has Deleted All Of The
Above Thread except Walter Day's First Comment. The Moderator comments below
on why he deleted the entire TG thread, and I am assuming that the debate got
to heated up and to many Twin Galaxies Private Discussions Are Being revealed
on this thread which I have saved for all to see above, unedited.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Monday, July 19, 2004 - 10:43 pm
Moderator/ Gary Vincent
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The above (first) message is Walter's position on this matter. All the other
messages were deleted because this forum is not the place to air out your
opinions on matters that do not concern Funspot. If you have complaints with
other companies, take those complaints to them.
Gary
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Scootie
Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 03:52 pm
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Hey Gary
Why didn't you go all the way and just delete the entire thread - since
this thread was a TG - not a Funspot - issue anyway?
Scootie
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Gary Vincent/ Moderator
Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 05:30 pm
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The comment posted by Walter was in response to the sarcasm posted here
concerning the Star Wars score. I’ve let this message stand as the official
response and deleted everything else since I did not want to waste the time
weeding out which comments were legitimate and which were name calling BS.
Not only is it immature to post such garbage, it is tedious to read. We will
be deleting many more postings in the coming days in preparation for the switch
to our new forum.
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The below High Score done in 1987 is being reviewed at this time. Link
Star Wars
64,071,484
Sui Ming Louie
Hollis, NY
01/02/66
.jpg)
