RICK Fothergil DOESN'T look like a world-class athlete. With a gray-flecked
T-shirt clinging to him like Saran wrap and a pair of pale legs protruding from
his baggy shorts, the 27-year-old concrete tester from Ontario, Canada, looks
as though a round of golf might kill him. Link
But Fothergil is on the verge of accomplishing a rare - historic, even - feat
of skill and endurance. After a grueling six hours and 15 minutes of play, he
is about to enter into the 256th screen of Ms. Pac Man. Known as the “kill screen;”
it’s the last screen Ms. Pac Man’s creators bothered to program. When you clear it,
the machine simply packs up exhausted.
"Last board! Last board!" cries one of the spectators milling around behind
Fothergil's back. The announcement has people tottering atop stools, craning
necks, clicking cameras. Only a handful of players have ever reached this stage.
New Article:
Rick Fothergil, Canada's favorite cement tester, has done it again. The new
world record on Jr. Pac-Man is now slightly over 955,000 points, but Fothergil
won't rest short of 1 million point; so, he is now doing further work on Junior
Pac-Man at the Funspot Family Fun Center in Weirs Beach, NH while competing as
a contestant in the 2001 Classic Video Game World Championship. But, there's more.
LES MARTIN:
Les Martin of Salisbury, Maryland has broken Super Pac-Man wide open, scoring over
ten million points in about nine hours.
Who is Rick Fothergil?
Please read the below article: Link
------
legendary classic gamers like Billy Mitchell, Dwayne Richard and Rick Fothergil
face off for the umpteenth time, the official contests for the classic gaming world
reach the ripe old age of four years.
See Boston Phoenix, Sunday, May 20 1999.
Starting at noon on Thursday, May 30, 2002, an expected crowd of more than 100 people,
mostly male, and usually between the ages of 22-55, will gather at the famous Funspot
Family Fun Center in Weirs Beach, NH, to compete for the coveted titled of "world's
best" classic video gamer on nearly 150 different legendary video games manufactured
between 1975-1986, namely the period now known as the "Golden Age" of video games.
And there seems to be something for everyone, whether you want to leisurely test your
skills on any classic on the floor, or put yourself in the frying pan of competition,
facing off against the nation's top players in a seven-game high score contest. Needless
to say, you'll have the thrill of playing the original Donkey Kong, Jr., Crystal Castles
or Berzerk you knew and loved 20 years ago.
Yes, five contests await the competitors, including a high-score contest on 150 different
games manufactured before 1987 to a "world championship" on seven different games. All
contests will be conducted simultaneously and will award the winners a listing in the
forthcoming edition of Twin Galaxies' Official Video Game & Pinball Book of World Records.
The contests are:
Contest 1. The Funspot-Twin Galaxies International Classic Video & Pinball Tournament,
now in its 4th year. This event is famous for attracting the top players, including
names like Rick Fothergil (Ms. Pac-Man, Jr. Pac-Man, Super Pac-Man), Billy Mitchell
(Player of the Century), Pat Laffaye (Frogger), Darren Harris (Ms. Pac-Man), Abdner
Ashman (Jr. Pac-Man, Ms. Pac-Man and Robotron), Rob Barrett (Tutankham), David Nelson
(Wheels, Sprint 2), Fred Pastore (Carnival), Mark Waterfield (Wonderboy), Dwayne Richard
(Dig Dug, Tutankham), Robert Mruczek (Star Wars), Donald Hayes (Tron, Centipede), Greg
Erway (Tapper, Rootbeer Tapper, MACH 3), Cameron Feltner (Wheels), Brian Laskiewicz
(Ms. Pac-Man), Mark Longridge (Joust, Wizard of Wor), Chris Ayra (Tempest, Ms. Pac-Man)
and many more.
This contest has seen world records
-----------------------------------------
Name: Rick D Fothergil Link
Hamilton, ON
Canada
(all) Arcade
Game title Score Rank
Arcade Donkey Kong 348,900 7
Frogger 33,920 21
Joust 40,500 21
Jr. Pac-Man 955,520 2
Kangaroo 2,900 10
Ms. Pac-Man 910,350 3
Out Run 12,061,960 6
Pac-Man 3,333,360 1
Pac-Man Plus 74,980 9
Pole Position 61,850 12
Qix 62,290 13
Robotron 32,800 30
Super Pac-Man 1,045,000 1
Turbo 30,425 6
Wizard of Wor 19,700 16
-------------------------------------
Rick D Fothergil Super Pac-Man High Score Link
Super Pac-Man, Arcade, Factory Settings
Rank 1
Score 1,045,000
Player Rick Fothergil
Hamilton, ON
Canada
Date Achieved Saturday, February 02, 2002
Date Verified Saturday, February 02, 2002
Verification Method Referee
Score Status Active
Rules Factory Settings
Difficulty : 8. Start Units : 3
------------------------------------------------------
Super Pac-Man Link
Variation: Factory Settings
Platform: Arcade
Rules: Difficulty : 8. Start Units : 3
Rank Score Player Verification Date
1 100.00 % 1,045,000 Rick D Fothergil 02/02/2002
2 81.91 % 855,940 Bill Deluca 06/11/2004
3 56.31 % 588,430 John Azzis 06/11/2004
4 43.65 % 456,190 Kevin Fisher 06/11/2004
5 31.57 % 329,870 Steve Sanders 06/11/2004
6 27.16 % 283,800 Todd Rogers 06/27/2002
7 26.11 % 272,810 Mike Lepkosky 06/11/2004
8 25.99 % 271,580 Todd Walker 06/11/2004
9 23.32 % 243,680 Tim Collum 06/11/2004
10 22.45 % 234,600 Ryan M Williamson 06/27/2002
------------------------------------------------------
The Day Report Link
5/4/2001 Day Report - May 4, 2001
by Walter Day
The DAY Report - May 4, 2001
Your Update from the Chief Scorekeeper
The Crazy Taxi World Championship is the biggest buzz right now. More than 100
competitors have already contacted Robert Mruczek, Twin Galaxies Referee in charge
of the event. The champions of more than 25 tracks (PAL and NTSC) will be honored
in the forthcoming Book of Records.
Robert Mruczek will also be refereeing world championships on the Sega Dreamcast
title, Wacky Races (tentatively June 1st thru July 31st), and on the N-64 title,
F-ZeroX (tentatively June 16th thru August 15th). The dates may change, depending
on Robert's schedule.
I have been sitting here watching videotapes of superstar play for two days. Here
are some of the great scores that I have put in the scoreboard database for all to
see: Chris Pope of Douglasville, GA goes in for his record score of 679,780 on the
arcade edition of Turbo Pac-Man; Nicolas Legare, of Gatineau, Quebec, Canada, goes
in for his 2nd-place score of 733,600 points on the arcade edition of Strikers 1945;
Brad Porteous of Vancouver, BC, Canada goes in for his 169,960 points on the
Intellivision edition of Lock N' Chase -- also a new world record (but it gets its
final blessings when Ron Corcoran, TG editor for Intellivision gives his verdict
on it).
As a result of his success with Strikers 1945, Nicolas Legare is being interviewed
this week by Le Droit, a large city daily newspaper in Ottawa, Canada. Three cheers
for Nicolas.
Another awesome player to watch is Hector Rodriguez of Rowland Heights, California,
who dominated the Dreamcast section of the recent THPS 2 Best-Combo Championship.
Now, that is some playing. Videotapes of his gameplay will be put up on the Internet
before long.
Another great success that has been posted on the online scoreboard is the Time
Crisis 2 world record achieved by Dennis Blechner, of Kassel, Germany. His Time
Crisis 2 solo score of 1,628,740 points will hold the first-place position in the
book of records unless someone pulls off a miracle before the August 31st deadline
and beats his score.
John McCann, our Minnesota-based Gorf superstar has sent us a tape of a 106,000 score.
He plans on building up his score to challenge Todd Rodgers' 600,000+ world record.
The biggest news, though, is Drew Cauthen's new world record of 1,598,223 points on
Tony Hawk 1. We sent the story out all over the Internet and many sites have posted
the news, honoring Cauthen. Also, the news was submitted to the Clarion Ledger in
Mississippi, which is considering the story. There are other Twin Galaxies champions
in the news, too. Our THPS 2 champion, Aaron Clark, was interviewed by the local
newspaper in Grimsley, U.K. and by the BBC-Radio in Humberside. And, now, at least
one online kids magazine wants to do a story on him.
Another star is emerging in the Tony Hawk 1 world. Tim Krause reports a high score
of 1,675,000 million on the School level for N64. The tape is on the way.
The Louisiana State Video Game Championship, which has been moved to June 16, 2001,
will include five arcade games, all set on Twin Galaxies' Tournament Settings.
Among them are Tekken Tag Tournament and Hydro Thunder.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Day Report Link
5/4/2001 Day Report - May 4, 2001
by Walter Day
The DAY Report - May 4, 2001
Your Update from the Chief Scorekeeper
Now, I've saved the best for last. Here's another top score to report: 10 million
points on Super Pac-Man. Les Martin of Maryland, purposefully stopped at board 840
after breaking Rick Fothergil's year-old record of 1,045,000 points. He is sending
in a videotape of his high score performance, which, upon verification, will be the
new world record on the arcade edition.
Once again, dont forget to watch the contest calendar. Big stuff will be added soon.
---------------------
Content Originally From:
Super Pac-Man
Bally/Midway 1982 (KLOV entry)
Reviewed by Nathan Strum - Super Pac-Man Game Play:
Most people recall Ms. Pac-Man as the first sequel to Pac-Man. But it wasn't originally
intended to happen that way.
When Pac-Man became a huge hit, Namco began working on its sequel - Super Pac-Man. But
it was taking them too long. Bally/Midway (who licensed Pac-Man for the U.S. market)
was getting impatient - they wanted a sequel while Pac-Man was still a hot property.
Fortunately, the solution came along from a company called General Computer. General
Computer had developed an enhancement board for Pac-Man called Crazy Otto, and had
approached Bally/Midway for permission to market it. Impressed with their work, and
desperate for a sequel, Bally/Midway had them rework Crazy Otto into what became
Ms. Pac-Man.
The plan worked better than anyone could have imagined. Ms. Pac-Man drew unprecedented
numbers of women into arcades and boosted revenue, but also offered enough challenge
for the millions of die-hard Pac-Man players to keep coming back for more. In the end
Ms. Pac-Man outsold the original Pac-Man - 115,000 to 100,000 - and became one of the
most respected games of the classic era. Namco was none-too-happy that Bally/Midway
had released an unauthorized sequel, but they couldn't deny its success. Ms. Pac-Man
was the perfect follow-up to Pac-Man - it took all of the gameplay elements that made
Pac-Man a huge success, and improved on all of them.
With Super Pac-Man, on the other hand, Namco took all of the elements that had made
Pac-Man a huge success, and threw them out the window.
Certainly, there were the die-hard Pac-fans who couldn't get enough Pac-Man games,
and drove Super Pac-Man to some level of financial success. But from a gameplay
standpoint, it failed to recapture any of the success of the original.
In Super Pac-Man, some basic familiar elements still exist - the intermissions,
Pac-Man, the monsters, energizers, fruit, and a semblance of a maze. The similarities
end there, however. The elegant simplicity of Pac-Man - clear the maze of dots while
avoiding or eating monsters - becomes cluttered. Now, instead of a well-defined maze
filled with dots, there's a simplified maze partially covered with fruit (or similar
objects), keys, and not four, but six energizers. To clear a level, you have to eat
all of the energizers and all of the fruit. It sounds like Pac-Man, but there's more
to it than that.
One of the key differences in the game is that now there are doors leading to various
sections of the maze that have to be opened by eating the keys around the maze. As
levels progress, the keys open different doors, so you can't rely on a certain key
always opening up a certain door.
Another change is that when a bonus item appears, it shows up as a star with two chambers
on either side. In each chamber, objects rapidly flash. If you happen to eat the star
when both objects match, you get a huge bonus. Otherwise, you just get just a few hundred
points. The problem here is that it's completely random - it's not tied in with the level
you're currently playing, and it seems to be triggered when you eat a random piece of
fruit. Luck has more to do with getting a bonus than skill does.
The biggest single change is in addition to the four energizers that turn the monsters
blue, there are two green ones that turn Pac-Man into Super Pac-Man. When this happens,
Pac-Man becomes huge, and the monsters shrink, and Pac-Man passes right through them
(unless they're blue, in which case he can eat them). While he's Super Pac-Man, he can
also simply knock down any of the doors in the maze. You can also hit the Super Speed
button during this time, and move at lightning-speed through the maze.
There are also bonus mazes that pop up every few levels. No monsters - just you, the
maze, and a bonus timer that counts down. The faster you clear the maze, the more bonus
points you get. This is probably the biggest departure from Pac-Man, since there's almost
nothing left of the original gameplay left in these levels. Without monsters, what
is Pac-Man?
By diverging from the original gameplay so much, Namco made a serious misstep. The whole
challenge of having an intricate maze to completely clear of dots is gone. Super Pac-Man
is more of a free-for all, than a game requiring careful strategy and concentration.
Replacing the dots with fruit (or food, shoes, clovers, etc.) makes the game screen look
cluttered, and more like a kid's game, than something aimed for a broader audience.
The bonus levels offer nothing in terms of a strategic challenge, and only contribute
to the haphazard feel of the game. The fact that the maze never changes is another
serious drawback - especially in light of the multiple mazes that came out in Ms. Pac-Man.
The biggest problem with Super Pac-Man though is that too much of an advantage is given
to the player. With six energizers and super-speed, there's no reason to even give the
monsters any consideration. Just grab a nearby energizer and blow through the maze until
you reach the next one. Without needing to clear the entire maze surface of dots, there's
not much ground that you're required to cover. Worse still, the monsters seem almost
oblivious to your presence - in fact, they're downright stupid. The monsters become a
non-issue, strategy is unnecessary, and the game rapidly becomes a bore.
Perhaps some combination of elements of Pac-Man and Super Pac-Man could have made for
a solid game, but Namco really missed it here. In retrospect, it's probably a good
thing Ms. Pac-Man was around, or the franchise might have been seriously damaged if
Super Pac-Man had become the first sequel.
For what it's worth, at least Super Pac-Man wasn't the worst of the series. That
distinction belongs to the Super-terrible Pac & Pal. Fortunately - I don't have to
review that one.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tommi
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:47 am Post subject: Link
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
"There are also SUPER PAC wuses on this big planet"
I see database first is Mr. Fothergill with 1M+
What happened to Les Martin score of 10M? It should be possible with patterns,
right?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
permafrostrick
Referee
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 7:49 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tommi wrote:
What happened to Les Martin score of 10M? It should be possible with patterns,
right?
it was removed due to a challenge from someone who felt 10 million was impossible.
It was removed cuz the videotape didn't show the entire game screen...but just the
top portion of the board with the score and top energizers.
The 10 million is moot cuz plans have long been tentative to destroy that score.
Les has drastically improved at Super Pac since that 10 million run....scary.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tommi
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:04 am Post subject: Re: PAC WUS defined
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TheOilZone wrote:
Definition complete.
Oookay, thanks
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
permafrostrick
Referee
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: PAC WUS defined
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TheOilZone wrote:
This term, in the 21st century, does not apply to Rick Carter anymore.
oh? I have lost my wusdom?!?! Crap! hehe
I think I am still very much a mspac wus/wuss....until I actually do finally
master the slow boards where I reach the kill at regular speed....hopefully
topping 900k as well. I am a Crystal Castles wus/wuss also...cuz I only managed
to get 872k. Man, I played that game tons...I still remember those nights in
Seaford, DE playing what likely was $100 worth on 1 night of that game. Luckily
we had free play(well, perhaps some initial fee but then unlimited play) for
them lots of those nights.
Quote:
ANYBODY trying to reach the split screen with anything above 3,2xx,xxx is a
Pac Master.
I am not sure I would call a 3,200,000 game a masterful game...cuz tons know and
can run 9th key patterns. If you can survive the early boards and just run the
9th key you will get 3.2 million.
3.25 million is starting to show some skill. 3.275 million is really getting
there.
I call 3.3+ million masterful cuz at that level the player is eating nearly
all of the monsters...certainly can eat all on the shortest blue-time boards...
just perhaps misses one here and there. Someone scoring 3.2 million can totally
miss on those boards.
Quote:
The game DOES HAVE UNIQUE SPEED DEMANDS ON THE PLAYER as any Pac Wus should
know. This speed destroys the confidence of the many to strive for high scores.
definitely
Quote:
Well Mike Ziara was right......"Les make sure you understand that if no one
can see your techniques......the bar for Super Pac scores WILL NOT MOVE."
I don't know about that. I choose to not focus on that game cuz it was "yours".
I think if we had "pushed" each other on that game back then we both would have
been into the millions even back then. There were plenty of other games for me
to play. Back in 83-84...before you started to truly master the game, I was
reaching scores of around 300-400k....game ending around stage 32-34 of course...
hehe..and I didn't kong or ka-ching the way you can.
It also was why I never really played regular pacman that much back then...it
was your game. I didn't want or need the conflict. I had plenty of other games
to play.
It's amazing for superpac that you can mentally keep it together where you
know what stage you are playing(rest of details omitted for obvious reasons).
Remember a few of us had pretty much mastered Thief. We left that to Mike...
it was his game to set a great record/score on....which he of course did!!!....
especially the way he would juke those cars and kong them all even on the
short-blue ones...after hours and hours of play!!!
Quote:
14 Hours and 22 minutes takes it toll; especially for a 47 year old...........
who is a PAC-WUS.
I heard that! It definitely gets harder to stay focused at a proper level to
be able to play that many hours....especially for games with limited #men....
can't afford to make many mistakes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
TheOilZone
Location: Salisbury, Maryland
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:43 pm Post subject: Seaford Game room
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rick,
When you were getting 870s on Crystal castle that night I was getting 2.4 Million
with 5 men on Super Pac............
That too was denied because no one had scored 1 million.
Hmmmmm......................................
I think the score was 588,xxx by some deud in California.
Hmmmmmmmmm............................
Well.....................................................................................
Why hasn't any body playing Super Pac mentioned the GOLD SCORE?
TG Referees be certain........there is a GOLD SCORE in Super Pac .
MR X knows what the GOLD SCORE is but he can't post here no more.
Mikey knows what the GOLD SCORE is and so does David Ziara.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Z.
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:10 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WELL let's see...
GOLD SCORE in Super Pac is for THE FIRST TIME and FIRST TIME ONLY on A/ONE
Super-Pac Machine that hit's 1,000,000 points for the first time. The final
score (should it be high score) will remain gold until power is removed.
I'd just like to post this and state ... SOMEBODY from outside the normal
PAC-REALM did get over 10M points on Super-Pac. It can and was done. Why
does he have to prove it? I'll tell you why, because someone who hasn't like
LES from the early 80's is the same someone who denies his 10M point Super-P
score. Secondly, what in the world does a 47 year old man have to prove by
lying, cheating (so called rack advancing on a COCKTAIL SUPER-PAC Machine-
*laff*) when he tells the truth about a well played game.
I say to the PAC-REALM... figure it out yourselves, give Les his props and
beat his score. I personnally video taped the 10M game, I know how he does
it, in fact could do it myself, but like permafrost Rick has stated...Pacman
is Les' cup of tea.
Truth be known, you guys who deny this score just want to see the tape of
how he does it so you can do it better. STOP being lazy and figure it out
for yourselves!! It's rather simple. IF LES ever decides to show you how he's
done this 10M point score, what would it be??... a week before the people at
TG would be marathoning Super-Pac?? Oh now it would be legit because you have
witnessed and EVEN done it. Oh this score stands now.
Question - in the videotape(s), the very first tape, you saw LES literally
climb into the cocktail model to ensure proper dip switch settings (which is
located underneath a large monitor). Put a quarter (two) in and play on player 2.
*which allegedly held 8 digits* according to TG sources.
HOW DID/COULD HE HAVE RACK ADVANCED IT? (i just hate asking such open ended
questions to non-believers and accusers) But I just want to understand the
TG thought process.
Lastly, I did tell LES - Don't show them how you get the score (because there
are younger, more talented gamers out there) and watch the scores stay the same.
SHOW them how you do it and then the SKY's the LIMIT! It's nice to see a lot of
earthbound super-pac players waiting for someone to show them how to break
this game open...
Thanks for your time - Mike Z
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tommi
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:07 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Z. wrote:
Truth be known, you guys who deny this score just want to see the tape of how
he does it so you can do it better. STOP being lazy and figure it out for
yourselves!! It's rather simple. IF LES ever decides to show you how he's done
this 10M point score, what would it be??... a week before the people at TG
would be marathoning Super-Pac??
I can see the point. Yet, I would like to see the tactics...because that would
be interesting to watch....and maybe try myself too, for fun.
I have all my game tactics openly exposed at MARP
I've submitted there a few years ago a recording for Karate Champ 1, a recording
of 999k, that shows my tactics to anyone with a PC.
More recently submitted a recording of "Kram" that was 1,35M.
I know that these records would stay probably forever if I had submitted them
to TG without allowing anybody to see MY tactics. So far nobody has been a wus
enough to beat me with my own tactics, but it is possible, especially at kchamp
which is marathonable.
Japanese list game records for marathonable titles so that they give credit
to the first player to reach 1M, 10M etc.
Cheers, TJT
P.S. Maybe new superpac 10M tape could be submitted to TG, if they promised
that only Walter and Rick C? or Robert M would be able to watch it. I'm all
for openness though.
Maybe Japanese method would be good.
P.S.2 Interesting to hear about golden score
Allmost like having a star after your score at ROTJ!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RMRUCZEK
TG Board of Directors
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:55 am Post subject: 10M
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Tommi:
I had a call over 2 years ago with Les Martin in which I said that NO ONE other
than myself would watch his taped performance, plus promised not to submit my
own Super Pac scores at all. Les also expressed at another occassion, once
word got to him that the taping could not be counted, that he might do a 20M
performance, but nothing since.
So, publicly, I am stating for the record that I will not divulge tactics or
patterns of any such submssion upon my receipt and verification. I'm hoping
this will spur a submission, now that this has been publicly stated, so let's
wait and see.
Robert
_________________
Robert T Mruczek
Twin Galaxies - Editor and Chief referee
Star Wars classic arcade marathon champion
rmruczek@doremus.com (work E-MAIL)
******************************
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
permafrostrick
Referee
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:24 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Z. wrote:
WELL let's see...
first....MIKE!!! How ya doin'?!?!?
Wow...haven't heard from you in quite a while now. To recognize me now you sort
of have to envision me as I looked 15 years ago...not as you saw me hmmm 1.5
years ago already?!?! I have lost 40 pounds since then. Popeye has little
on my forearms now also.
e-mail me chump! hehe I still have the same e-mail address. I will try e-mailing
the last addy I had for you...see if it works.
Quote:
GOLD SCORE in Super Pac is for THE FIRST TIME and FIRST TIME ONLY on A/ONE
Super-Pac Machine that hit's 1,000,000 points for the first time. The final
score (should it be high score) will remain gold until power is removed.
hehe...I sort of vaguely remember that now...talking in the high score table
right? Mappy is the same way...as you would guess to start with. Didn't Galaga
have something odd like that also?
Quote:
Why does he have to prove it? I'll tell you why, because someone who hasn't
like LES from the early 80's is the same someone who denies his 10M point
Super-P score.
Mike, I know you and Les still think that's why...but overall that isn't it
anymore. It maybe had something to do with why it was challenged...but it has
nothing to do with why the score was removed and/or Les asked to achieve 10
million again.
Lots of TG scores have been removed from the scoreboard for similar issues.
TG has a videotape policy now where in short Les's tape didn't meet the minimal
requirements.
Robert has never said Les didn't get 10 million. In fact, from discussions with
him he definitely believes the score. He also believes Les can go much higher...
as he noted above.
Robert and others would love to see a 20 million score set. You can take Robert's
word that he will not share the tape gameplay with anyone without Les's ok if Les
expresses that on submission.
I have volunteered to be a second referee to watch the tapes if necessary. I am
pretty sure Les wouldn't mind if I was one who reviewed the tapes....especially
if I couldn't be there personally when he finally does this. Unless he does it
during a week I take off for vacation, odds are I won't be able to be there for
the entire thing. If it included part of a holiday or Sunday then I could catch
at least part of it...waving to the camera etc. too...hehe If I ever decided to
score millions on superpac then watching Les's game really wouldn't change anything
for me....cuz I would train and master it myself....not just copy what he does...
little difference from pacman there...just a lot harder to master superpac versus
pacman. Just takes a lot more time...a LOT more! Les has been dedicated to playing
superpac off and on over several years to get at the level he is playing the
game now.
I have watched Les play...he has shown me tons of notes on the game. As he can tell.
I shy away from looking at any of it really...hehe No way I would feel I earned a
score by just copying what another gamer does.
Why none of those other guys...especially Rick F...have been able to score into
the millions is beyond me. I am guessing they just haven't put in the tons of hours
playing the game to the extent and intensity that Les has. Rick and others played
many other games also....Les pretty much hasn't the past 15 years....except for a
little jrpac here and there...hehe
Quote:
I say to the PAC-REALM... figure it out yourselves, give Les his props and beat
his score. I personnally video taped the 10M game, I know how he does it, in fact
could do it myself, but like permafrost Rick has stated...Pacman is Les' cup of tea.
actually, Les will be the first to tell you Mike that pacman isn't his cup of tea.
He was awesome at running patterns in pacman though...never seen anyone else run
patterns as consistently as he can.
SuperPac IS his game. He made it his game...starting in 1983. He has mastered that
far beyond what he did for pacman.
Quote:
HOW DID/COULD HE HAVE RACK ADVANCED IT? (i just hate asking such open ended
questions to non-believers and accusers) But I just want to understand the TG
thought process.
The thought process of some here is where players own their own systems, they can
customize the system. ie...setup buttons or other switches elsewhere near/on the
controls to do certain things.
ie. if I had my own mspac machine, I KNOW I would want to setup 2 switches/buttons
where one freezes the gameand the other rack advances...for ease of practicing the
slow boards. It beats the crap out of trying to do it yourself(virtually impossible)
or have a slave do it for you.
LOL...I still remember those late Golden Dome nights where I or you would often be
almost sitting in the mspac cabinet...ready to rack advance at a holler or start
of the death sound...to prevent loss of life...to reset the board for practicing
the next one.
I think some of these guys have customized their games in this fashion.
Quote:
Lastly, I did tell LES - Don't show them how you get the score (because there are
younger, more talented gamers out there) and watch the scores stay the same.
He doesn't need to show anyone IMHO except for Robert and perhaps another referee...
since such a significant score on a pretty significant title gamers might want more
than just 1 referee reviewing it.
How is your Thief game Mike?!?!? hehe
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
pacmantab
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 2:46 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With respect, this sounds all too familar to the Pac-Man split-screen legend.
In short, players like Les have the means to silence their critics - WITHOUT
having to expose their secrets to the public.
In other words, if Robert tells me he has a tape conclusively proving that 10M+
in Super Pac-Man is possible, that would be good enough for me....
_________________
- Tim B.
1983 Pac-Man World Champion
FIRST Perfect MAME (5/11/2002)
Perfect Arcade (6/14/2003)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
permafrostrick
Referee
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 7:00 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
pacmantab wrote:
With respect, this sounds all too familar to the Pac-Man split-screen legend.
see? why is that? I am surprised a couple haven't set millions on superpac prior
to Les doing it. I just assumed they never played the game enough to do it. Les
has been among pacmasters going back to 1982...yet not recognized is all.
Quote:
In short, players like Les have the means to silence their critics - WITHOUT
having to expose their secrets to the public.
It's not the general public Les has been worried about really. It was for certain
TG referees and/or consultants who have set scores for superpac or would like to
themselves. That would turn it into more of an endurance contest. Les realizes
he likely can't win an endurance contest. That doesn't make him less masterful
at the game.
I and Robert have convinced Les enough where he has planned on doing a new run
completely shown on tape that would get verified. However, you try with a wife
and kids and a job making time for a 24-48 hour marathon on a game. It doesn't
fit into lifestyles that easily.
The question is why haven't any of these guys who seem to think you can't score
multi-millions at superpac done it? I know I could do it with about 6+ months
of serious training and practicing on the game.
As Les pointed out, it's not so trivial as you get older...not like it was in
He actually wants me to personally watch and witness his play...in addition to
fully taping it. However, odds are I won't have a week of vacation where I could
do something like this for him until next spring/summer...but then he would have
to be able to plan it all on the week I have off. I have to put in for annual
leave up to 6 months ahead...so this isn't something I can just quickly help plan.
Quote:
In other words, if Robert tells me he has a tape conclusively proving that 10M+
in Super Pac-Man is possible, that would be good enough for me....
I can already go beyond this. I have personally watched Les play superpac for a
few hours and him play to 1+ million on 1 life. Taking that 1+ million and
extending to 10+ million is just a matter of endurance and clear thinking over
that time.
The game gets no harder beyond a certain stage...and loops on itself...as
several pac masters already know...so why they knowing this still doubt it...
is beyond me.
Les is a far better superpac player now versus when he set that 10+ million
score. He did that using marathon settings...earning a man every 100k..cuz
at that time that was the TG arcade track settings.
However, he can do multi-million on only 5 men now. I hope he does a 5-man
run versus the marathon run....so there is no dispute with settings used etc.
...so just have patience. He can do it. I am 100% confident in that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
pacmanfevr76
Location: St. Louis, MO, USA
Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:29 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm still waiting to hear some sort of report from Mike Morrow. How are you
progressing? Is the machine even functional yet? (I guess that would be a helpful start.)
Here's where I stand currently. Even though I apparently have no skill at
this game, I managed to beat my high score by over 1.2 million tonight. I
thought for sure I was going to get to the kill screen, but I came up a wee
bit short. I should kick myself for the two mental errors I made during the game.
_________________
Douglas Loyd
PS2 Tiger Woods series earnings (as of 12/16/04): $224,413,825
3,333,360 OR BUST!!
THE QUEST: 3,296,110 (12/23/04)
(That will be the second-to-last FULL game I ever play.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
MKM
TG Advisor
Location: $C000 - $CFFF
Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:18 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
pacmanfevr76 wrote:
I'm still waiting to hear some sort of report from Mike Morrow. How are you
progressing? Is the machine even functional yet? (I guess that would be a
helpful start.)
Here's where I stand currently. Even though I apparently have no skill at
this game, I managed to beat my high score by over 1.2 million tonight. I
thought for sure I was going to get to the kill screen, but I came up a wee
bit short. I should kick myself for the two mental errors I made during the game.
My deal with Dwayne fell through at the last minute. I'm still trying to
find a cabinet with all the guts so I can hook up my board.
There is an auction in Mesquite, TX in a few days, and that might yield up
what I'm looking for.
As soon as I can start playing I will post an announcement.
_________________
Please send me a Private Message to get my email for TG/game questions.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
pacmantab
Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:05 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
pacmanfevr76 already at 2.7 million!?
Close to that finish line, I see.
I played my Arcade Pac-Man last weekend - and kept working on some other patterns
(trying for simplier, not necessarily faster) to make starting a perfect run more
consistent....
_________________
- Tim B.
1983 Pac-Man World Champion
FIRST Perfect MAME (5/11/2002)
Perfect Arcade (6/14/2003)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
pacmantab
Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:37 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
permafrostrick wrote:
pacmantab wrote:
With respect, this sounds all too familar to the Pac-Man split-screen legend.
see? why is that? I am surprised a couple haven't set millions on superpac prior
to Les doing it. I just assumed they never played the game enough to do it. Les
has been among pacmasters going back to 1982...yet not recognized is all.
I guess the thing about it is this: What other secret tricks, strategies, etc.
have we heard of that only one person can do, or figure out? This is pretty much
unprecedented from what I see.
permafrostrick wrote:
pacmantab wrote:
In short, players like Les have the means to silence their critics - WITHOUT
having to expose their secrets to the public.
It's not the general public Les has been worried about really. It was for
certain TG referees and/or consultants who have set scores for superpac or
would like to themselves. That would turn it into more of an endurance contest.
Les realizes he likely can't win an endurance contest. That doesn't make him
less masterful at the game.
Unless I am mistaken, Robert had also agreed to not use said trick for his own
use. Given this, my previous quote still stands. Besides, as TG tends to shy
away from marathoning, wouldn't this trick of Les' be more of a novelty anyway?
permafrostrick wrote:
I and Robert have convinced Les enough where he has planned on doing a new run
completely shown on tape that would get verified. However, you try with a wife
and kids and a job making time for a 24-48 hour marathon on a game. It doesn't
fit into lifestyles that easily.
I know from personal experience how hard that is. That said, arranging time for
such a marathon is difficult - but not impossible. I've managed to do it on a
few occasions for Pac-Man - with a job and family and all.
permafrostrick wrote:
The question is why haven't any of these guys who seem to think you can't score
multi-millions at superpac done it? I know I could do it with about 6+ months
of serious training and practicing on the game.
This is pretty much my point from before: To say that only one person in 20+
years has figured this thing out is quite a stretch. No, the probability is
not zero, but I would suggest that it is too close to zero for comfort.
permafrostrick wrote:
As Les pointed out, it's not so trivial as you get older...not like it was
in your 20s for sure.
I would have to agree. But in this case, would Les have to play for 24-48
hours to prove his trick works?
permafrostrick wrote:
pacmantab wrote:
In other words, if Robert tells me he has a tape conclusively proving
that 10M+ in Super Pac-Man is possible, that would be good enough for me....
I can already go beyond this. I have personally watched Les play superpac
for a few hours and him play to 1+ million on 1 life. Taking that 1+ million
and extending to 10+ million is just a matter of endurance and clear thinking
over that time.
I say again (with due respect): If Robert (not you or Les) tells me he has a
tape conclusively proving that 10M+ in Super Pac-Man is possible, that would
be good enough for me.
Besides, given your logic, it could be argued by some that anyone who can play
Super Pac-Man to 1+ million per man should be credited with 10 million by default.
As easy as the journey may seem, you are still required to make it.
permafrostrick wrote:
...so just have patience. He can do it. I am 100% confident in that.
I guess time will tell, then....I look forward to the report from Robert....
_________________
- Tim B.
1983 Pac-Man World Champion
FIRST Perfect MAME (5/11/2002)
Perfect Arcade (6/14/2003)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
pacmanfevr76
Location: St. Louis, MO, USA
Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:20 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, that's how far I got. If I hadn't had visions of sugarplums dancing in my
head, I would have made it to the end. This is a fine example of why I think
that maintaining focus during almost four hours of repetition is harder than
doing a one-second board.
As I was finishing board 217, I started thinking about what I was going to do
when the game came to its end. My intent was to complete the kill screen and
run through the right side of the screen so that I would get stuck in the "box"
above the tunnel. I could then let the confused ghosts run around trying to
find me while I got my camera out and took a couple of snapshots as a memento
of my first kill screen. I remember thinking "Where's my camera?" as I turned
directly into Blinky at the very beginning of board 218.
(Had I finished, I would have had 3,276,710.)
_________________
Douglas Loyd
PS2 Tiger Woods series earnings (as of 12/16/04): $224,413,825
3,333,360 OR BUST!!
THE QUEST: 3,296,110 (12/23/04)
(That will be the second-to-last FULL game I ever play.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
pacmantab
Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:43 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ouch! Reminds me of my "daydreaming" once during a perfect run - which resulted
in my mindlessly running into Pinky.
What I found useful was "training" beforehand. In other words, visualize what
you're going to do BEFORE starting the game (including getting the camera ready,
etc.) - and try out strategies first using MAME. I hit several snags before running
a perfect game - and used MAME to figure out what I did wrong, and then to figure
out how to avoid the same mistakes again.
Looks like you're just about there.
_________________
- Tim B.
1983 Pac-Man World Champion
FIRST Perfect MAME (5/11/2002)
Perfect Arcade (6/14/2003)
aaa
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I should be getting my Pac-man board soon!
Twin Galaxies Forums Forum Index -> Coin-Op Video Games
permafrostrick Link
Referee
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:53 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
pacmantab (Tim Balderamos) wrote:
Unless I am mistaken, Robert had also agreed to not use said trick for his own use.
ehh? We were referring to superpac here. There are no tricks to superpac that
Les uses.
Quote:
Besides, as TG tends to shy away from marathoning, wouldn't this trick of Les'
be more of a novelty anyway?
ehh again?!?
5-men that someone has enough skill to turn it into a marathon is an amazing feat.
ie. I'm sure if someone with 5-man q*bert played for 10 hours setting 5+ million,
that would be an amazing feat...so Les playing superpac for 24+ hours with only 5
lives is an amazing feat also....given no one else has even broken 1 million with
only 5 men.
It's the fact he can do this that I suggested to him to just train and go for the
5-man score...instead of the marathon record. He has trained and improved his game
quite a bit in the past 1.5 years. I'd guess(Robert can confirm??) that if Les
can set 10+ million on superpac with only 5-men that his "marathon" score would
be reinstated...even though it's inferior to what he can do on the game now.
Quote:
To say that only one person in 20+ years has figured this thing out is quite a
stretch. No, the probability is not zero, but I would suggest that it is too
close to zero for comfort.
exactly...for superpac...so why is a 10+ million score so unbelievable to
some of these pacmasters?!?
The fact they challenged it etc. tells others they have tried and tried....
yet don't see it as a possibility?!?! It's odd given they are pacmasters.
Quote:
I would have to agree. But in this case, would Les have to play for 24-48 hours
to prove his trick works?
I think you are confused. There are NO tricks Les is using when playing superpac.
He is playing the game as intended...just totally embarassing the monsters...
stage after stage....hours on end.
Don't get superpac confused with pacman and the split-screen "trick".
Quote:
If Robert (not you or Les) tells me he has a tape conclusively proving that 10M+
in Super Pac-Man is possible, that would be good enough for me.
Thx for discrediting me as a TG ref. **sigh** Perhaps that wasn't your intention,
but it is what your statement states.
I say with all of the integrity as a TG ref, that Les has totally mastered the game
of superpac and can easily score into the millions with only 5 men. I have witnessed
his play...and watched him play through 100+ stages without 1 death. It's all just
a question of whether he can do a 24+ hour marathon nowadays. I think he can with
some planning. I am not sure his self-confidence to do a marathon is there.
Witnessing the play live should mean even more than tapes.
If you choose to not believe me, then no TG ref can be trusted. I value my integrity
as a referee and as a gamer for my gaming integrity very highly. Without integrity,
gaming means nothing.
Even given this, I or Les are not asking for his 10+ million score from years back
to simply be reinstated. I totally understand that the tapes Les sent in showing
the game didn't show the entire game screen except for the first part of the game.
I also understand why Les taped it in the manner he did. He thought certain individuals
would get to view the tapes and he didn't want these certain individuals to see how
he plays the game....thinking they would then quickly play themselves and top Les's
score. As said above, Les likely can't win an endurance contest....which is what it
would turn into with certain other pacmasters.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
pacmanfevr76 (Douglas Loyd)
Location: St. Louis, MO, USA
Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:10 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------0
Well, Tim, I'd say I'm close, but still incredibly far away. I know how to do
everything save for six little boards. Neil made twelve of the first eighteen
boards a snap. I deviate slightly from him on my 7th and 8th keys. My ninth key
pattern is well-emblazoned in my memory, as are two "mistake" patterns, (which I
actually never had to use one time during that 2.8M game.) I used to run the same
exacting pattern on the kill screen that Neil does, but a little bit of insight
from you made me junk that pattern in a heartbeat. The kill screen is a piece of
cake now.
I have all the pieces but one. Once I have that one piece, everything else is just
a matter of not losing focus.
_________________
Douglas Loyd
TG Bounty Hunter ($150 for 2, so far)
Perfect Pitfall score - 8/14/04
3,333,360 OR BUST!!
THE QUEST: 2,792,450 through 218 (12/5/04)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
pacmantab (Tim Balderamos)
Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 7:42 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
permafrostrick,
Actually, I was unaware of your being a TG referee. Certainly not my intention
to offend.
That being said, are you also an Arcade platform referee? I have always been
under the impression that Robert M. was the person in charge of Arcade video
verification - explaining my quote in which I wanted Robert himself to review
said video.
Perhaps "trick" wasn't the best word in this case (Super Pac-Man). But, if it
is a case of simply "embarassing the ghosts...stage after stage...," then it
shouldn't be something that would baffle every Super Pac-Man player, save one,
for over 20 years. With all due respect, considering the talent out there, it's
just a little hard to believe is all.
And the thing about Les' video showing only part of the screen? As a referee,
you can surely understand how such a recording opens things up to speculation.
It's not that I don't trust any TG referee but Robert, I would simply suggest
looking at this from the other side of the issue.
In other words, if the other Pac-Masters were required to submit complete
recordings of their Pac-Man Series games (sans any "partial screen shots"),
then Les should be held to the same standard.
And again, Robert has already said that he would be the only person to
watch the video - and would not use what he saw for his own benefit.
Thoughts?
_________________
- Tim Balderamos
1983 Pac-Man World Champion
FIRST Perfect MAME (5/11/2002)
Perfect Arcade (6/14/2003)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
pacmanfevr76 (Douglas Loyd)
Location: St. Louis, MO, USA
Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:58 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Going along with Tim's most recent line of logic, even if Robert had the
full screenshot and WANTED to implement those tactics, I don't think he could.
This is not to say Robert can't repeat what he sees, but doesn't he have the
recordings of the first three perfect Pac-Man games? (Or at the very least,
doesn't he have Billy's?) Yet, Robert was proud of himself in a thread somewhere
when he upped his high Pac-Man score to around 150,000. If a player has not
studied the game to the nth degree and practiced it for a long time, 150,000
is a fantastic score. It is a far cry from 3,333,360 though. So, I don't think
Robert replaying what he has is even an issue.
_________________
Douglas Loyd
TG Bounty Hunter ($150 for 2, so far)
Perfect Pitfall score - 8/14/04
3,333,360 OR BUST!!
THE QUEST: 2,792,450 through 218 (12/5/04)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
permafrostrick
Referee
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:54 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
pacmantab (Tim Balderamos) wrote:
Actually, I was unaware of your being a TG referee. Certainly not my intention
to offend.
No problem...I figured that. Just look under my forum name in posts and you
will see "referee".
Quote:
That being said, are you also an Arcade platform referee?
My official status as of right now is in the MAME area....so if you want to
call that arcade as well is up to you. I think it's essentially the same since
rulings and reviews etc. for both platforms are in most cases identical.
I do not currently receive tapes of arcade score submissions. I have been
in discussions over issues in tapes being reviewed by others though.
BTW, Les has scored millions in superpac in MAME also.
The bulk of my knowledge is in the golden era arcade game area.
Quote:
I have always been under the impression that Robert was the person in charge
of Arcade video verification - explaining my quote in which I wanted Robert
himself to review said video.
Yes, he certainly is. He definitely would be the primary referee to watch any
tapes submitted by Les or anyone.
However, it's much more likely I can be present to witness Les's superpac
play as he also tapes it. It's only about a 2.5 hour drive from me(Baltimore)
to Salisbury. I could even assist with tape switches etc. If I can't be there
for all of it, I figure I can also view/review the tapes as well and give my
comments to Robert as part of the overall review process.
For something as significant as a multi-millions superpac score which many
have doubted, I think it would be nice to have Robert and another referee
review and if both accept then there would be absolutely no doubt.
I have quite a bit of skill and knowledge for pacman type games. All you have
to do is look up my MAME scores at MARP. I use the username "LN2" there....or
just search for Rick Carter. I certainly don'thave my pserosnal bests at MARP...
except for the 1 pacman score...but there is enough of a sampling. Robert maybe
isn't as familiar with superpac, I definitely am...and have a personal best
from the early 80s of around 450-500k myself on 5 men. I didn't play the game
at all from 1984 until 2002 when I played it in MAME.
The gameplay for superpac is straightforward enough though that even if Robert
had never played superpac he can see the game is played at TG settings and is
played without tricks etc.
Quote:
Perhaps "trick" wasn't the best word in this case (Super Pac-Man). But, if it
is a case of simply "embarassing the ghosts...stage after stage...," then it
shouldn't be something that would baffle every Super Pac-Man player, save one,
for over 20 years. With all due respect, considering the talent out there, it's
just a little hard to believe is all.
EXACTLY! That was exactly my point above. Les has shaken his head a lot over
this also...cuz honestly it's baffling to us that these other pacmasters have
not been able to totally master superpac where they can marathon it(meaning
at least 10 hours in this case).
mspac and jrpac are significantly tougher than superpac. Anyone that has mastered
I even noticed something about superpac playing it myself last year that I had
not ever noticed when I played it seriously for a few months in the 80s(82 or 83?)....
that I would apply if playing it myself. Les doesn't seem to apply this in his
gameplay so maybe he hasn't even noticed what I noticed recently.
Quote:
And the thing about Les' video showing only part of the screen? As a referee,
you can surely understand how such a recording opens things up to speculation.
I said this above myself...I 100% supported Robert's conclusion the video tape
doesn't show enough to dismiss any challenge. What I didn't support was the
challenge itself....no valid basis. ...and explained it to Les as best I could.
His score wasn't challenged by Robert or other TG ref(s) but by other pacmasters.
This was the basis of the challenge. "10+ million? I can't do it so I challenge
it." IMHO, that isn't grounds for a challenge...but in this case it was...cuz
Walter accepted it. Robert then dug up the tapes and watched them himself...found
it didn't meet the NEW criteria and requirements for tape submissions TG has
nowadays...so approved the removal of the score until it can be proven by a new
score to be valid.
I still don't quite get that policy...just remove it..period. If I have a 500,000
score for some game...and told to match or beat it to get that old score reinstated...
isn't that moot by some new score of let's say 540,000?!?!? ....or would both the
old and new scores be shown for that player on the scoreboard?!?! I thought a new
and higher score would replace an older, lower score....so a score is essentially
removed/deleted when a challenge occurs. Either way, the old score is GONE from
the scoreboard.
Quote:
It's not that I don't trust any TG referee but Robert, I would simply suggest
looking at this from the other side of the issue.
I indicated above I accept the decisions made by Robert. It was the basis of
the challenge I didn't personally accept.
You can't please everyone. A few at MARP...even with my converted macmame replay
file for pacman so it works in pc-mame so you can view it all you want, think I
somehow "cheated" and want me to "prove myself" by playing it in wolfmame on a PC.
Gimme a break. It's obvious from watching my replay I have mastered the game.
I wouldn't play it any differently in wolfmame on a PC.
Quote:
And again, Robert has already said that he would be the only person to watch
the video - and would not use what he saw for his own benefit.
Yes...it has taken a lot of discussion in 2003 between myself, Robert and Les
to convince Les that is the case. I very much trust Robert to keep the content
of what is on tapes to himself if the gamer wishes it...and that if he needs a
second opinion on reviewing that he gets the gamer's permission because it might
be someone that gamer might prefer not watch their tactics of how they play.
Given these guys challenging are pacmasters themselves, it wouldn't take much
for them to see...omg, how could I have overlooked this all these years... then
they with a couple months of training accomplish what they haven't been able
to do for 20 years.
They could watch Les play for 5-15 minutes and likely see all they need to see
to be able to get multi-millions themselves...with a few months of practice.
Les even has considered bringing his cocktail(well, at least the joystick controller)
to Funspot this next summer and setting the record there...potentially with some
limit(s) on who can witness the gameplay.
I don't get why the assumption many seem to have is a gamer is always a cheater
until proven otherwise. It should be where a gamer is trusted until proven to
cheat and not follow the rules.
To make the conclusion they must have used a trick or cheated just because certain
other "masters" of that game can't score anywhere near as high isn't fair and
actually is disrespectful toward the gamer. These masters have the ability to
score multimillions..but for whatever reason have not had the vision to accomplish
it.
At least that's how I feel about it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TheOilZone
Location: Salisbury, Maryland
Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:26 am Post subject: Once Upon A Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once Upon A Time BEFORE someone submitted a tape with supposedly 10 million on
super pac this was true..........
The Official TG Settings for SUPER PAC were singular in nature.
They were......
3 Men to start
extra at 30,000
extra at 100,000
and every 100,000
Then came the tape...................
Mike Ziara was right again.
"Les, when this tape goes in TG will CHANGE the rules to allow scores for a 5 man
game only....you see Les this score represents disruptive technology..........".
You be rocking their world Les...............so get your game in gear to play with
only 5 men cause they won't stand for this very long".
Wisdom from Mike Ziara again...........
Well if you ever visited cubeman(?)'s site the score keeping rules were changed
to reflect TWO SEPARATE ways to track scores.
AFTER THE TAPE was submitted........................................................
There are 3 stages to truth:
1) FIRST it is ridiculed
2) SECOND it is vehemently opposed
3) THIRDLY...sometime later it is accepted AS FACT
Man oh man...........no one else has a Super P tape yet they are believed.
So if anyone posts here that there is another Super Pac tape I state to you all:
Robert M told me that there is no other.
All the other wus scores are from Ottumwa Iowa in January 1983 at the That's
Incredible pre-tourney............
If you doubt that OK.......I guess me being there watching the scoring as A REFEREE
isn't enough.
I shall not post on this subject again here for any more sayings posted only will
give clues to how simple the game can be boiled down to.
AND I STATE FOR THE RECORD:
If it were not for David Ziara and Mike Ziara showing me the way to the game's
simplicity this WOULD HAVE NEVER HAPPENED; and this discussion about 10,106,040
scores on Super Pac would never happen.
I played the game to honor my father's battle with prostate cancer and his
defeating it.
This game was to represent this victory that he had.
Robert M had done his job admirably as a referee following to the letter of the
law the rules.
It is not Robert that I have any concern about.
There are others that want the prize without the work.
THAT ISN"T GOING TO HAPPEN ON MY ACCORD.
So Go get the codebusters to open up the game and see what you can find
about Super Pacman.
There may be found a line of code that says:
When Les Martin plays let him score 10 Million..............
Don't let the others score that high.
The monsters know me and that's enough for me.
No one 47 years old should post at 3:24 in the morning.
Merry Christmas to all...........................................
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
permafrostrick
Referee
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 11:22 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LOL... nice post.
I didn't even know....or had forgotten a couple of the facts you brought up above.
You are right though...no 47 year old should be up at 3:40am posting...but
already should be at about the hmmm....7-8 million mark?!?
muhahahahaha! Get to it!
It's nice to see your confidence vote in Robert. He is just following TG policy.
Happy Holidays!!!
P.S. This 40 year old is already up at 3:40am 5 days a week!
muhahahahaha!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
pacmanfevr76
Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 284
Location: St. Louis, MO, USA
Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 10:22 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3,296,110
The next complete game I play will be my last.
_________________
Douglas Loyd
PS2 Tiger Woods series earnings (as of 12/16/04): $224,413,825
3,333,360 OR BUST!!
THE QUEST: 3,296,110 (12/23/04)
(That will be the second-to-last FULL game I ever play.)
----------------------------------------
pacmantab
Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2004 12:30 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
permafrostrick wrote:
pacmantab wrote:
Perhaps "trick" wasn't the best word in this case (Super Pac-Man). But, if it
is a case of simply "embarassing the ghosts...stage after stage...," then it
shouldn't be something that would baffle every Super Pac-Man player, save one,
for over 20 years. With all due respect, considering the talent out there, it's
just a little hard to believe is all.
EXACTLY! That was exactly my point above. Les has shaken his head a lot over
this also...cuz honestly it's baffling to us that these other pacmasters have
not been able to totally master superpac where they can marathon it(meaning at
least 10 hours in this case).
I wrestled with whether I should respond to this or not, but I finally decided to.
My quote above was not me marveling at Les' skill (all due respect to him). Rather,
I meant it as saying: To suggest that ONLY ONE player in 20 years has figured out
how to marathon Super Pac-Man legitimately (as you describe) borders on the impossible.
Couple that with Les only showing "partials" of his play and - well, again with
respect, it sounds just like the whole "shooing spectators away" just before he
bypasses the split screen on Pac-Man.
However, as I stated before, if Twin Galaxies becomes able to officially declare
that such a thing HAS been done (and they are able to witness the whole thing on
video), then that would be good enough for me.
pacmanfevr76 wrote:
3,296,110
The next complete game I play will be my last.
Wow! Almost at 3.3 Million That would put you in the top five right now!
Good luck on your final complete game! [/b]
_________________
- Tim B.
1983 Pac-Man World Champion
FIRST Perfect MAME (5/11/2002)
Perfect Arcade (6/14/2003)
----------------------------------------
pacmanfevr76
Location: St. Louis, MO, USA
Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2004 1:46 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it will probably be a while before I play past board 19.
This was my first kill screen. It will probably be the only one I ever see where
the final score is not 3,333,360. (I'm hoping I never have to do it over again,
should a reason be found to throw it out.) This was the kill screen that almost
wasn't.
I had lost my second life at about 800,000. I then travelled to the 180th board
and took a little break, still on my third life. I figured since I had been on
one man for about 120 boards, finishing the last 76 with four lives would be a
cinch. I took my next break ten minutes later almost on the verge of a breakdown.
I still 68 boards to go, but I was down to my LAST life. I had lost three lives
in a seven board span. Later, I made a really bad mistake at about 2,800,000 which
forced me to pass on a key to avoid death. (Had it not been for that mistake, I
would have had enough to make 3.3 million.) But, I made it to 255, parked in the
sit spot, dug out a digital camera, a camcorder, and a brother to tape it, and
finished the game, scoring (the one-life maximum) 6310 on the kill screen.
P.S. Tim, thanks for the little tidbit on the kill. I was extremely tense going
into that board, and that little break made finishing very easy.
_________________
Douglas Loyd
PS2 Tiger Woods series earnings (as of 12/16/04): $224,413,825
3,333,360 OR BUST!!
THE QUEST: 3,296,110 (12/23/04)
(That will be the second-to-last FULL game I ever play.)
----------------------------------------
permafrostrick
Referee
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1773
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 6:47 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
pacmantab wrote:
Rather, I meant it as saying: To suggest that ONLY ONE player in 20 years has
figured out how to marathon Super Pac-Man legitimately (as you describe) borders
on the impossible.
That definitely makes it very special...but not impossible...but IMHO it's easy
to marathon superpac....if you played the game to the degree Les has.
We are baffled if other pacman masters have played superpac seriously for any
length of time why they have not been able to master it where they can get
multi-millions.
Quote:
Couple that with Les only showing "partials" of his play and - well, again with
respect, it sounds just like the whole "shooing spectators away" just before he
bypasses the split screen on Pac-Man.
Yes, I can see that. However, Les's tapes and score were originally accepted by
TG. Once accepted...regardless....any challenge of a score must have a legitimate
reason for the challenge. A challenge cuz "I can't score that high." isn't a valid
reason for the challenge...regardless who that is. However, that happened...and
the tapes were rewatched and it was then with the newer, stricter TG verification
standards that Les's tapes were found to not be a sufficient display of the gameplay
so the score was essentially removed.
Even years ago, if I had decided to play superpac seriously(meaning at least 2-3
hours/day, almost everyday for at least a few months), then I could score
multi-millions also.
It amazes me that just cuz certain pac masters say it's virtually impossible
that that is good enough grounds for TG to believe that is indeed the case...
and so anyone claiming to do it couldn't have done it.
As a pacmaster myself...I am saying...superpac is just as easily mastered...
well, not quite as easily cuz the variance in the board gate triggers...but
still much easier IMHO to master superpac versus master mspac or jrpac.
Quote:
However, as I stated before, if Twin Galaxies becomes able to officially declare
that such a thing HAS been done (and they are able to witness the whole thing on
video), then that would be good enough for me.
no problem there. Les has never refused to do such a thing. He still has a position
though that he doesn't want these "nonbelievers" who challenged and had his sore
removed to see his gameplay. Let them keep thinking it's impossible even after Robert
has seen it's easily possible.
I have tried to convince Les versus doing a marathon just start a 5 man only game...
play for 1 video tape fills worth of time...and just stop when that tape is full.
In SLP mode, that would be a 6 or 8 hour game depending on tape size...easily done
in a regular day off...would be at least a few million in score...and just submit
that. A note saying you only lost 1 or 2 men over that score could be shown in
the comments.
The problem is that Les really wants to set a 15-20+ million type of score on the
game...playing for at least 20-24 hours. Availability to go for that doesn't come
around very often.
Les isn't concerned about it really...cuz IMHO he has nothing to prove to anyone
really. He knows that he has mastered superpac far beyond anyone else in the world.
I have witnessed his play. I'm sure stuff he does in his gameplay would make
even other pac masters go...wtf did he just do?!?! I didn't know you could do
that. hehe
----------------------------------------
pacmantab
Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 11:42 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I say again: If other Pac-Masters are required to submit complete and unedited
recordings of their performance, then Mr. Martin needs to be held to the same
standard.
And, since it has already been noted time and again that Les' game play would
NEVER be disclosed to the public on request - and that the reviewing referee
would NEVER use what he saw for his own gain, then I would submit that we have
all bases covered.
Look at it this way: Say that, for argument’s sake (and my past perfect games
notwithstanding), I play a game of Arcade Pac-Man, but only record the game up
until the 10th key - and only show part of the screen during the one-second
boards. Then I submit the tape - with the comment that, since I had already
played a complete game from the 11th key on without missing any points in the
past, I have proven that I can play a perfect game - and thus should be credited
with the same. If asked why I did not provide a recording of a complete game, I
express my concern of other players copying my game play - as well as stating
I do not have time to play a complete game now.
As a referee, do you accept this and credit me with a perfect game?
I think you definitely understand where I am coming from, as I understand your
convictions regarding Les' performance. Unfortunately, with the "bad apples" we
have come across over the years, verification standards have gotten tougher.
It may not be palatable to some, but holding players to said standards has been
long regarded as the only way to be sure of a certain score or level of play.
If you have additional thoughts or ideas, I would welcome them.
As far as "challenges" are concerned: If the basis of a challenge is a simple
case of "well, I can't score that high so it must be a fraud," then I see your
point. But most challenges over the years have shown to be beneficial in weeding
out fraudulent players and scores. Billy Mitchell has several documented cases
of sniffing out false scores. In such cases, he knew he couldn't score as high
as the claimed scores - but he also knew the given game inside and out. He knew
the bottlenecks in the game play and how to bypass them. Thus, with only a few
questions, he could unmask a false score fairly easily.
With this, I am curious: Have any of the Super Pac-Man contenders had a chance
to speak directly to Les? I would imagine the likes of Rick Fothergill would
be interested in seeing if Les knows what he knows about the game.
Considering what I have read on this thus far, I would respectfully question
whether the challenge(s) regarding Les' Super Pac-Man scores are as baseless
as you seem to suggest....
_________________
- Tim B.
1983 Pac-Man World Champion
FIRST Perfect MAME (5/11/2002)
Perfect Arcade (6/14/2003)
----------------------------------------
Mike Z.
Joined: 02 Dec 2004
Posts: 2
Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 1:34 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pacmantab, you make a good point with your story. But in this video game world/*TG*
world, so to say, where "I Can't Score that high" is permitted??? I ask you - Is
this the same standard that Les' accusers/doubters say about ALL the tapes or just
LES Martins? So is/was he held to the same standard as the others? No he was not!
It seems there, for a moment was an "exception" admitted to challenge his score
and gameplay. (sounds like 83 in the DOME Les) Granted his video showed score only
and not the "HOW TO" for other players.
I'm sure this was a ONE TIME occurance and it won't happen again. *Laff and note
the sarcastic overtones of this last statement*
It's instances like this and SPECIAL considerations made on Les' behalf EXACTLY
why he doesn't want to show them nothing but the score!
I guess it'd had been more acceptable/believable for Les to turn in an "average"
score of 3M points? Right? But I'm sure the "I CAN'T SCORE THAT HIGH" voice would
be up and about again.
It's funny in a way. We used to see certain names affiliated with pac scores "back
in the day" and to this day we acknowledge that these were and still are awesome
pac-man players that acheived such scores. Without video tape, etc. The funny part
is since '83 Les has never been credited, but rather slandered on his Pac Play and
scores. Why's this? HE IS NOT IN THE CIRCLE of "Accredited Pac players"!!! He didn't
show "chosen" few how to get by the split screen in Pac-man, just as his video tape
only shows the score and upper right energizer in Super-P. Hence the rule changes
and such, not to mention his 10M score trashed all on account of someone to lazy
and shouting " I CAN'T SCORE THAT HIGH!!"
Figure it out on your own, and tell me why 10M only took 14 hrs. to get!?!? Pretty
good stuff I'd say. No offense to B. Mitchell, but I'd invite him to "SNIFF" away
on this one.
In short, there are others out there who can and HAVE pounded some really great
scores on Pac games. It's a noted fact that Les won't be the first on any of them!...
WHY? Because ... rather it might say...I can't score that high so NO ONE WiLL Be
allowed to score that high.
----------------------------------------
dwidel
Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 3:09 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Z. wrote:
But I'm sure the "I CAN'T SCORE THAT HIGH" voice would be up and about again.
They're not saying I CAN'T they're saying NO ONE can. Anyone who claims to be able
to do what is widely regarded as the impossible, like get past the split screen
should be held to the highest possible standards. When it comes to the split screen
I wouln't even trust a tape, I'd want to examine the machine.
If you can't prove it you might as well be talking about seeing big foot or santa
clause because no one will take you seriously. People have gone well out of their
way to make it easy to prove, offered large sums of money. No one has, so any
reasonable person would conclude anyone that claims to have done so is full of it.
That would lead me to question any claim they made about anything.
----------------------------------------
pacmanfevr76
Location: St. Louis, MO, USA
Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 9:52 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I, for one, am in absolutely no position to doubt the veracity of a 10,000,000
point Super Pac-Man game. I am not one who has excelled as far as I think is
possible in the game, therefeore potentially giving me a reason to challenge that
number. I am not very good at it as of right now. I can say, having played boards
past level 32, that if that is a legitimate score, it is quite impressive.
The other issue recently brought up is the split screen "solution." As far as I
can see, since there apparently is a member of TwinGalaxies who has seen it done,
(besides Rick Carter,) the tactic has been outlawed. It would seem since a specific
setup is necessary that is against "the spirit of the game." I have no idea what
the tactic is, nor do I care.
I have been thinking lately, and I would just like to throw a monkey wrench into
the line of the "spirit of the game" thinking. According to the rules of Pac-Man,
when you run into a ghost, you die. Therefore, has it ever been addressed whether
or not any patterns containing "booeys" go against the "spirit of the game?"
_________________
Douglas Loyd
PS2 Tiger Woods series earnings (as of 12/16/04): $224,413,825
3,333,360 OR BUST!!
THE QUEST: 3,296,110 (12/23/04)
(That will be the second-to-last FULL game I ever play.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
permafrostrick
Referee
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:38 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First, let me sway I have stayed unbiased on this issue. As a referee I must stay
unbiased. Many think I am biased since I know Les. However, I have witnessed his
mastery of the game. I have seen him score 500+k on 1 man playing the superpac
rom set in MAME.
I would think for a challenge that a TG referee witnessing the gamer doing a
demonstration of that sort would be enough to dismiss the suspicion that the
gamer cheated and hasn't mastered the game. That goes far beyond just answering
some questions.
That's not good enough for this case for whatever reasons.
After seeing Les's gameplay, I actually suggested a couple things which would
potentially increase his scoring rate(hehe)...which is important for any marathon
type run....especially for a 5-man game.
Note, the 10 million score was with marathon settings...extra man every 100k.
Les can now get multi-millions with only 5 men. His gameplay has improved a lot
since that 10 million game.
I think the original challenge was of the game settings...which the tapes clearly
show as matching the superpac-marathon track settings for Les's game. However,
the challenge then went beyond that.
pacmantab wrote:
I say again: If other Pac-Masters are required to submit complete and unedited
recordings of their performance, then Mr. Martin needs to be held to the same
standard.
Yes....however that isn't what the issue really was about.
We(meaning, Les, Mike, myself, and others) are baffled these pac-masters actually
think it's virtually impossible to score multi-millions in superpac. The game is
easier to master versus mspac and jrpac.
Quote:
Look at it this way: Say that, for argument’s sake (and my past perfect games
notwithstanding), I play a game of Arcade Pac-Man, but only record the game up
until the 10th key - and only show part of the screen during the one-second boards...
As a referee, do you accept this and credit me with a perfect game?
By today's standards...of course not. Of course you are also talking about a
perfect game...and today's(2004's) standards.
A better analogy for pacman would be let's say you are the very first to submit
a 3.2+ million score for pacman...the first to reach the split-screen... Others
say it can't be done...simply cuz they have never seen it and can't get there
themselves and claim the split-screen is bogus.
I'd bet that was the view of the first claimed game to reach the split-screen
submitted to TG...but later was "no big thing" cuz reaching the split-screen for
any master player isn't that difficult.
Quote:
I think you definitely understand where I am coming from, as I understand your
convictions regarding Les' performance. Unfortunately, with the "bad apples" we
have come across over the years, verification standards have gotten tougher.
exactly...but are the older 80s scores being removed cuz they can't meet today's
verification standards? ...not in most cases. I have easy evidence for challenging
off several of the older scores(like those for Major Havoc) with details etc. yet
that challenge which has a valid basis has never been accepted as a legitimate
challenge...since the details of the gameplay for those scores is "unknown". It's
funny scores of this type are allowed to remain cuz there is no tape proof to
show they did in fact use the hand trick etc. even though it's clear even without
any tapes that is clearly the case...based merely on the scores.
hmmm, yet Les's score which was accepted...is challenged cuz "I can't do it."
which is accepted as a valid basis for a challenge. The tapes are rewatched
enforcing today's tougher standards...and the challenge holds up.
No real reasons for the superpac score challenge have ever been presented. It's
"assumed" that since only part of the game screen is shown..and no sound...and
other pacmasters can't do it...that something along cheating must have been done.
It's sort of sad really.
The only reason Les showed only part of the game screen and no sound was so if
other pacmasters were allowed to watch the tapes(which was extremely likely at
the time the tapes were submitted) that they wouldn't get to see the keys to
the game to get multi-millions....then they get multi-millions themselves.
If these were tapes submitted in 2002 or later, I would 100% agree with not
accepting them. Nowadays, a player can request the tape not be watched by anyone
other than Robert without prior permission...and that the gameplay not be discussed
with anyone without prior consent of contest to be shown by the gamer.
Quote:
As far as "challenges" are concerned: If the basis of a challenge is a simple case
of "well, I can't score that high so it must be a fraud," then I see your point.
I have stated several times now it's very possible. I have witnessed it. I knew
how to do it even before ever witnessing Les's play. I just never played the game
enough to get to that point. I could have done it back in the 80s if I was inclined
to do so.
Quote:
but he also knew the given game inside and out. He knew the bottlenecks in the game
play and how to bypass them. Thus, with only a few questions, he could unmask a false
score fairly easily.
definitely....as is the case with any referee for games they are very familiar with.
Several questions were asked of Les in regards to aspects of superpac....which he
provided details only someone who has reached stage 100+ would know.
Sorry I can't give any details...but if I just posted them almost all would agree
that multi-millions are possible. No tricks...just playing the game.
Quote:
I would imagine the likes of Rick Fothergill would be interested in seeing if Les
knows what he knows about the game.
Rick is one of the players that Les doesn't want to see or even talk about his gameplay...
cuz then Rick likely would come back and just set a higher score.
dwidel wrote:
I would respectfully question whether the challenge(s) regarding Les' Super Pac-Man
scores are as baseless as you seem to suggest....
It's not explicitly stated...but Robert roughly confirms this in his post above.
Quote:
They're not saying I CAN'T they're saying NO ONE can. Anyone who claims to be able
to do what is widely regarded as the impossible, like get past the split screen should
be held to the highest possible standards. When it comes to the split screen I wouln't
even trust a tape, I'd want to examine the machine.
That's a separate case....of which I have brought up a couple of these points with
Les also. He actually isn't 100% sure the technique was for some reason specific to
that 1 machine. I don't think he ever tried it on other machines. I asked him if the
board/rom set was verified. He wasn't sure...so that question is definitely there.
He doesn't really care about that issue anymore. I agree for the split that confirmation
of someone doing it on an approved machine would be required.
Superpac is a separate issue. Any pacmaster should realize the game can be mastered
similar to mspac and pacman and jrpac so you can play for 100+ stages...even on 1 man.
----------------------------------------
pacmantab
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:57 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rick,
As a TG Referee, your being unbiased should go without saying. That said, I am
somewhat disturbed that you would take some of my quotes out of context. An example:
permafrostrick wrote:
pacmantab wrote:
Look at it this way: Say that, for argument’s sake (and my past perfect games
notwithstanding), I play a game of Arcade Pac-Man, but only record the game up
until the 10th key - and only show part of the screen during the one-second boards...
As a referee, do you accept this and credit me with a perfect game?
By today's standards...of course not. Of course you are also talking about a perfect
game...and today's(2004's) standards.
A better analogy for pacman would be let's say you are the very first to submit a
3.2+ million score for pacman...the first to reach the split-screen... Others say
it can't be done...simply cuz they have never seen it and can't get there themselves
and claim the split-screen is bogus.
I'd bet that was the view of the first claimed game to reach the split-screen submitted
to TG...but later was "no big thing" cuz reaching the split-screen for any master
player isn't that difficult.
You leave out the part of my argument where I had proven before that I could reach
the split screen (i.e., via a witness - as you have done with Les).
Besides, Les' Pac-Series scores in the '80s are not the only ones that have been
removed pending verification. I can tell you of one time where Walter Day himself
could not believe that a 1.3 million Donkey Kong score could possibly be fraudulent
- saying that the player "played in front of me" and that the player was an upstanding
individual. Nevertheless, it was indeed proven that said score was impossible.
I don't think anyone is questioning whether Les is a good - no, great player. And I
think everyone (myself included) understands the point where he does NOT want other
Pac-Masters to see his game play so they can beat him. I myself had always hoped that
no one would break my 1983 score.
permafrostrick wrote:
I have easy evidence for challenging off several of the older scores(like those for
Major Havoc) with details etc. yet that challenge which has a valid basis has never
been accepted as a legitimate challenge...since the details of the gameplay for
those scores is "unknown". It's funny scores of this type are allowed to remain
cuz there is no tape proof to show they did in fact use the hand trick etc. even
though it's clear even without any tapes that is clearly the case...based merely
on the scores.
hmmm, yet Les's score which was accepted...is challenged cuz "I can't do it." which
is accepted as a valid basis for a challenge. The tapes are rewatched enforcing today's
tougher standards...and the challenge holds up.
No real reasons for the superpac score challenge have ever been presented. It's
"assumed" that since only part of the game screen is shown..and no sound...and
other pacmasters can't do it...that something along cheating must have been done.
It's sort of sad really.
Begging your pardon, Sir, but what can also be seen as "sort of sad" is seeing a
TG Referee all but spin conspiracy theories against the organization they claim
to represent in an unbiased fashion. Note the key point made in an earlier post:
dwidel wrote:
They're not saying I CAN'T they're saying NO ONE can.
Playing the role of "Devil's Advocate" if I may: How can we be sure that Les did
not use a speed-up or invincibility cheat while his doing so was concealed by the
partial screen shot?
I agree with you that Les could play in front of a TG referee in lieu of a taped
recording, even if it were only a couple of million versus 10 million. But I for
one would like to see Les play at a TG event - or at least in front of Walter Day
or Robert Mruczek at this point. Otherwise, have him record a shorter, say, 2,000,000
-point game with a full view of the screen for Robert's eyes only. Have him verify
what Les can really do and you can finally silence his critics once and for all.
As for not wanting to disclose his "secrets:" I know that if I were offered six
figures to disclose my perfect patterns, I would be very tempted to say, "Where do
I sign?" Even if it meant allowing a score of players to obtain perfect games when
they heretofore would likely never be able to.
Finally, I should say this: As you may already know, Les was one of four players
that had claimed scores of 8 million+ on Pac-Man in 1983. It was Les' 12,000,000
point score that appeared in USA Today that year - before it was removed along with
the others - leaving my 1983 score as the new world record.
Players like Les caused my recognition as World Champion to become watered down.
This is because, by the time the issue with the split screen was discovered, gaming
magazines and newspapers were no longer publishing Pac-Man high scores. In other
words, MY score, not Les', should have appeared in that USA Today article.
In the day, TG relied mainly on witnesses and, for all intent and purposes, an
"honor system" to ensure scores were legit. Too many times has it been proven that
players will do anything to be considered the best of the best - to stand "far and
away" from all other players - other top players included. It follows, then, that
TG cannot simply “take a player’s word for it” insofar as accepting such an incredible
score like 10 million on Super Pac-Man – with due respect and apologies to Mr. Martin.
It has been the case for many years that TG scores can be challenged - new or old -
this is NOT anything new or something to exclude all but a "chosen few." This is why
a player should ALWAYS play at a TG event, or record the complete game (full screen
shot) beginning to end so debates like this can be avoided.
In this regard, other players have had to go the extra mile to prove themselves -
why should Les be any different? As a TG Referee, you should be able to abide by
that - even if you do not agree with it. Otherwise I would, with all due respect,
recommend that you reconsider your post as a referee.
Just my two….
_________________
- Tim B.
1983 Pac-Man World Champion
FIRST Perfect MAME (5/11/2002)
Perfect Arcade (6/14/2003)
----------------------------------------
dwayne Link
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:39 am Post subject: super pacman
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rick I don't think anyone thinks super pacman is to hard. I talked to robert and
for a guy to send in a score with only the top corner showing on the tape, "What
f*ck is that!" I don't even play super pacman and i can get 600 000 on it i don't
think it is hard at all. Most players would ask why play to 10000000.
Les doesn't seem to show up and play in any public manner which is ridiculous. No
one would try to put down any legitimate accomplishments. The public performance
helps to add crediblity. I have a hard time with how suspicious Les seems to be.
I hear lame excuses this is my opinion on the matter. I know Robert does not give
anyones secret tactics away so his fears are unwarranted. dwayne
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Z.
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 6:33 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[/quote]
Rick I don't think anyone thinks super pacman is to hard. I talked to robert and
for a guy to send in a score with only the top corner showing on the tape,
"What f*ck is that!" I don't even play super pacman and i can get 600 000 on it
i don't think it is hard at all. Most players would ask why play to 10000000.
Les doesn't seem to show up and play in any public manner which is ridiculous.
No one would try to put down any legitimate accomplishments. The public performance
helps to add crediblity. I have a hard time with how suspicious Les seems to be.
I hear lame excuses this is my opinion on the matter. I know Robert does not give
anyones secret tactics away so his fears are unwarranted. dwayne
Well Dwayne, first of all, LES is nothing but truthful...not "suspicious" as you
have stated! It's the TG people calling him a liar, phony, fake and such. Call it
what you will; justify it how you may...but KNOW THIS...as soon as Les sends a
tape in or lets a 'certified' referee look at his game--- BLAM everyone will be
posting monsters scores! This you can bet on. If it's not so hard the put 1M points
on the game, DO IT! No "LAME EXCUSES" just try and do it. Put up or shut the
"f*ck" up!!
Secondly, a public forum? What does Les need to prove to you? In fact, I'd love
nothing more than for Les to DO THIS THING just to SHUT YOU ALL UP!!! Then pacmantab
can openly admit to PERMAFROSTRICK he was wrong, apologize and ALL doubtful people
will know... LES IS LEGIT!! HE can and HAS beaten this game...I guess now he just
needs to be "BONIFIED/BAPTIZED" in the TG holy waters for the 'final' confirmation.
Lastly, I personnaly videotaped the 10M game (well 8.5 til I had to go) and Les
took my advice to: 1) videotape the score only 2) when he dubs the origianals
[which his still has] to do video only, with NO sound. I mean really, its a freaking
cocktail model game! I.e.- no cheats were used. Just pure PAC-ability! Seeing how
NOBODY else has a large score I'd venture to say it was a good idea. LES called
WALTER DAY and told him "I'm stuck around 500-600K, but BE ready Walter...when I
Food for thought ... FOR EXAMPLE ... if Fothergill watched Mitchell bust a game
open for a "can't be done" score/game. TG would accept it HANDS DOWN! Or wait...
there's a rule change and it's be thrown out? Think about it...(*disclaimer-not
bad mouthing people, JUST an example here*)
LES, I'll be gone for a while... PLEASE set something up for ROBERT to personnally
witness and I WILL BE THERE FOR IT. ALL OTHERS, quote me on this... SHORTLY AFTER
LES POST A WITNESSED by a "TG RABBI" MONSTER OF A SUPER-P SCORE...Others are sure
to FOLLOW!!! THIS has and IS the point of this SUPER-P thread. (please note-I'm not
saying/calling Robert anything with my statment. I'm just saying things work out
this way in the TG world.)
Rick, your credibility is as good as gold. You know it as we ALL do. Besides with
a PHD your IQ is nothing less than GENIUS! Keep in touch with me plz RICK via email
(Les & David have it). Sorry to put LES 'on the spot' but maybe, just MAYBE he will
have a FIRST 'recorded' high score on a pac game! He does and will, question is
for how long??...
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Title of Message Thread: I should be getting my Pac-man board soon! Link
Twin Galaxies Forums Forum Index -> Coin-Op Video Games
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pacmantab
Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:23 am Post subject:
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Rick,
Understood that Les submitted his 10,000,000 point score on Super Pac-Man sometime
in the early ‘00s.
That actually cements my point regarding challenges. Even if a score is accepted
and posted on the scoreboard, a challenge can STILL be made if a contender on the
title has reasonable cause to believe the score is not valid. I had assumed,
incorrectly, that this was an early ‘80s submission – and that part of your
argument hinged on the score being accepted BEFORE the challenge format was
enacted.
Since that is not the case, and said challenge is based on reasonable doubt,
this is really pretty simple: If Les has a complete unedited tape, have him
send it to Robert. If it is truly the case that Les has a complete unedited
tape (showing the entire screen for the entire game) of his 10 million-point
game, then that alone should answer the challenge and Les will have proven
himself.
Otherwise, he has a year from the date of being alerted of the challenge to
replay his game. A third option, of course, would be for him to just accept
that his 10,000,000 point claim will be removed permanently and play a shorter
game (maybe 2,000,000?) and submit that instead.
Rick, I think the reason I am “still missing it,” as you allege, is because
you are adding certain points that were heretofore unmentioned – unless you
are simply hinting at things already mentioned (i.e., your witnessing Les
playing to 500K+ on Super Pac-Man). If it is a case of the former, I can hardly
be faulted for it. If it is a case of the latter, I cannot think of how to
explain why that is insufficient any clearer – heck, I shouldn’t have to be
trying to explain this to a TG Referee in the first place.
permafrostrick wrote:
There is a different criteria to be passed for a score to be accepted on the
scoreboard....versus a score ALREADY accepted on the scoreboard that has
been challenged.
Maybe I am mistaken, but I thought when a score is challenged, you only need
to dismiss the reason the challenge was made to start with. The submission isn't
gone through the entire thing like it was a new submission.
I thought the challenge was based merely on the fact that the person who made
the challenge has not been able to accomplish multi-millions to the point they
felt it was impossible...so assumed Les used some trick or cheat to accomplish
10 million.
Even though the entire game screen is not shown for most of the gameplay(it is
entirely shown near the end.), there is enough evidence on the content of the
tapes...PLUS the other materials Les submitted PLUS a TG referee(me) watching
him play "practice sessions" getting 1+ million in 1 man etc....to dismiss
claims of rack advancing or other cheats...or the fact it was deemed impossible.
IMHO, that should dismiss the challenge cuz the basis of the challenge didn't
hold up.
Refer to Part I, Section II, Paragraphs 8.3 – 8.6 of the Record Book. It clearly
outlines the challenge process. A few key notes:
- Paragraph 8.4: This is the challenging statement that appears on all submission
forms. By signing said submission form, the player understands that their score
can be challenged by a contender who has just cause that the score is not valid,
and that if challenged, they agree to replay the game in front of TG-approved
witnesses – or face having said score removed. This should not be of any surprise
to Les – especially since his claimed score is so “far and away” from what is
currently out there.
- Paragraph 8.5 prohibits frivolous challenges. In other words, if said challenge
was truly made “merely on the fact that the person who made the challenge has not
been able to accomplish multi-millions to the point they felt it was impossible,”
then the challenge could not stand in the first place. The fact the challenge
stands should clearly tell us that there is more to it than that (i.e., video only
showing part of the screen). But again, if Les does indeed have a complete recording
of the entire 10 million-point game showing the entire screen, then that should be
enough to answer the challenge, as it should be as good as a replay.
- Paragraph 8.6, item 2: A player must get 90% of the claimed score to be awarded
the score – unless the game in question is a “mature” game. I know that Pac-Man
falls under the realm of a “mature” game, but I’m not sure about Super Pac-Man.
Nevertheless, Les would have to score at least 9,000,000 in a replay. While I see
your point regarding “practice sessions,” it is not enough to simply “dismiss the
reason the challenge was made…”
NO WHERE in said paragraphs does it suggest there being “different criteria” between
scores already accepted versus those that have yet to be accepted. In fact,
Paragraph 8.3 states:
“Challenging works on the premise that any video game score that has been achieved
once, can be duplicated again, simply because videogaming relies on memorization
and not on once-in-a-lifetime luck.”
Really, the only difference between the two scenarios you paint is that with a score
that has yet to be accepted, it would never survive scrutiny and no honest players
are harmed by said score being posted in the first place.
I, like you, hope that Les does indeed step up and prove his critics wrong. If what
he has claimed is indeed possible, it could put him in line for the next Player of
the Century Award. That may sound cynical, but I mean that sincerely.
For example: With Ms. Pac-Man, we hear a lot about Chris Ayra, Billy Mitchell, etc.
But the true pioneers of Ms. Pac-Man were the members of the Bozeman Think Tank.
Tom Asaki, Spencer Oueren, and Don Williams were the first to truly master the art
of grouping – showcasing their skills to public and players alike.
While said showcasing allowed other Pac-Masters to leap past the Think Tank’s
personal bests, today’s champions know of the Think Tank and acknowledge them as
the trailblazers in Ms. Pac-Man.
So, should Les indeed show the world that his Super Pac-Man claims are real; he
too would rise to superstar status. No longer a subject of suspicion, but rather
a subject of legendary proportions. Even if it became a case where other players
picked up on his strategies and blew his score away, Les would be acknowledged as
the first to truly unlock the secrets of the game. In effect, he would become the
“Tom Asaki” of Super Pac-Man (with respect and apologies to Spencer Oueren and Don
Williams (and Joe Wingard)).
Yes, Les could continue to keep his secrets secret and quite possibly protect his
high scores for all time. But for every person that believes his claims, I would
suggest that there are at least two others who know that other honest players have
been burned too many times by players who made incredible claims using “closely
guarded” strategies which proved untrue to allow themselves to take Les at little
more than his word.
permafrostrick wrote:
...just cuz the accomplishment was deemed impossible...Les doesn't get that kind
of benefit of the doubt.
I am guessing if certain other gamers did a similar taping it wouldn't be questioned.
It's "unbelievable" cuz someone outside of a particular circle did it...so they
challenged it.
You had once proclaimed that you were remaining unbiased regarding this situation.
However, I would submit that being unbiased should work both ways. The above quote
hardly suggests an unbiased air.
With that, I will try to take your advice, exercise patience, and wait for Les to
make a decision on what he will do. But, if I may speak freely, I would respectfully
ask that you do the same – lest your credibility may suffer with continued remarks
like the one above….
Just my two….
_________________
- Tim B.
1983 Pac-Man World Champion
FIRST Perfect MAME (5/11/2002)
Perfect Arcade (6/14/2003)
Back to top
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SUPER PACMAN Link
Manufacturer: Namco
Year: 1982
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Super Pacman presents a radical departure from the basic gameplay of its
illustrious predecessor. While you still control the yellow hero, you no longer
have to simply eat dots. Now you have to eat various fruit and treats. These
are also located behind locked doors and you must collect the keys on the maze
to open the door. This means you can easily get trapped if you only collect
the key opening the entrance while not collecting the key to open the exit to
the section.
There are two types of powerpill this time as well. The yellow powerpills have
the normal effect, that Pacman can eat the pursuing ghosts. There are also green
powerpills which temporarily increase Pacman's size and speed. Pacman is all
powerful when pumped up with both powerpills and he can also smash open the
doors without collecting the keys.
You must collect all of the fruit/treats and powerpills to clear the screen,
but you do not have to collect all of the keys.
At the midpoint of each screen a bonus star appears in the centre of the maze,
and the two blocks either side of it contain other changing bonus items. If
you collect the star you score extra points, but if you collect it when the
two changing bonus items match exactly you score extra.
Stages 3, 7 and 11 are bonus screens. There are no ghosts to avoid; you must
simply collect all the fruit/treats and powerpills before the bonus timer in
the centre of the screen reaches zero. Achieve this and you score the points
remaining on the timer.
The items you have to collect on each stage are worth 10 points each x the
level. They repeat after stage 16, but the score for each item still increases
past 160.
You start with three lives and extras are awarded at 30,000 and every
100,000 points.
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Scoring
Key: 50 points.
Powerpill: 100 points.
Super Powerpill: 100 points.
Apple: 10 points, Banana: 20 points.
Doughnut: 30 points, Hamburger: 40 points.
Fried Egg: 50 points, Corn Cob: 60 points.
Shoe: 70 points, Cake Slice: 80 points.
Toadstool(?): 90 points, Pineapple: 100 points.
Coffee Cup: 110 points, Mushroom: 120 points.
Bell: 130 points, 4-Leaf Clover: 140 points.
Galaxian: 150 points, Present: 160 points.
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Playing hints/tips
Try to group the ghosts together, and lure as many as possible at once behind
you before collecting a powerpill (3,000 for all 4 monsters).
Note that you can kill the ghosts in their home, so on the early stages you can
kill all 4, then collect another powerpill and kill them in their base as soon
as they regenerate. This gives you another few seconds breathing space as well.
At the early parts of each level, concentrate on picking up as many keys as
possible before collecting any treats. This way you open up a lot of the maze,
saving grief later on.
When you are fully powered up, collecting a normal powerpill extends your powerup
time. The super power does last longer than a normal powerpill.
When you are fully powered up, try and break through any remaining doors to save
you from having to collect all the keys.
Don't worry about the bonus star in the centre - it's not worth wasting time
waiting to try and match the items as you score far more points in general play
on later levels.
Although the maze layout is always the same, the keys on later levels open
different doors, so you can't rely on the same patterns on each screen.
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Perfect Pacman review by Chris Ayra Link
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PerfectPacman: speed pacman play
Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:54 pm Post subject: Perfect Pacman Stats
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There has been quite a bit of talk about the Perfect Pacman times, blue time patterns,
9th. key patterns and times, grouping methods, and the rumors of Bill and I taking 20
years to finally do a perfect game. So here we go!! It was the summer of 83 when Bill
and I figured out that the 9 dots on the split screen reappeared after each death.
It was that very moment that we realized that we held the secret to a perfect game.
We told only Walter Day about the 9 dots and only us 3 would know this until 1998
when the Pacman hype came around again. Thats when Rick and Neil came into the picture.
So in 1983 we set out to do a perfect game. We already knew how to field group on Ms.
Pacman so we applied it to Pacman. Within weeks we were grouping (without patterns
of course) and getting 1600s even on the 1 sec. blue time boards. In late 83, Bill
and I achieved Perfect scores on Pacman with Bill being first by a matter of weeks.
Since at the time only scores done in contest settings were allowed as world records
we decided to wait for the Guinness Book of World Records that came around in June
of each year. In 1984, one of the selected sights was in our city of Miami. The problem
was that they did not have a Pacman machine so we played alot of Ms. Pacman which by
that time the hype about Ms. Pacman was thru the ceiling. In 1985, we flew to Canada.
Again there was no Pacman. So we played Ms. Pacman again. Thats when I achieved my
874k record. In 1986, same thing, no Pacman. Finally, in 1987, we found a arcade that
was having the Guinness contest 700 miles away in Mobile, Al. So we drove there and
on my first attempt I had a Perfect game going into the 6th. key (field grouping, no
patterns) and I blew the last energizer, died, and lost the key all in one shot. I
continued my game to the split screen and achieved a score of 3,324,730 which stood
until Rick Fothergil beat it at the Funspot in 1999. So with that in mind we move
to 1999. It was only proper that Bill achieved it first since he had done it first
in 1983. So when he had achieved his Perfect game I decided to do something different.
Rather than field group the blue time boards and take 5 hours to do a score, I decided
to come up with continous forward motion patterns including the 1 sec. boards which
we could do in 1 min. 48 sec. that way I could set a time so fast that it could never
be matched except by Bill and I. Now for the stats on the Perfect game. Perfect blue
at the end of 6th. key came at 27 min. 58 sec. (my personal best is 27:05). At the
end of board 20, the time was 29:31 (my best is 28:3 The 9th. key pattern I used ran
at 42.43 sec. The split screen took me longer than normal. To get the 9 dots and die
6 times and clear the entire board takes us 1 min. 48 sec. In my game I was more
careful and took 2 min. 39 sec. for a total game time of 3 hrs. 42 min. and 4 sec.
We now have a 9th. key pattern that runs at 41.65 sec. and would gives us a game
time of 3 hrs. 37 min. 2 sec. if every board ran Perfect. Hopefully this will clear
up alot of questions or fire up some......................
Chris Ayra~~~920,310~~~Ms. Pacman
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Les Martin Super Pacman score not Accepted
(Video Tape Unacceptable - Need Full Screen)
Thank you,
paul dean spy hunter champion June 28, 1985
www.spyhunter007.com
Brylane Wishes
Game Music
Spy Hunter
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Biography Commentary Questions
Click On Below Graphic Text For Spy Hunter Introduction
Tournament and Guinness Book Results From 1983-2004
Click On Below Graphic Text For All Video High Scores
thru 2004
The Golden Era
Click On Below Graphic Text For Material On The Golden Years Of Video Games 1980's
Click the Below Graphic Text to read my Conversations With Walter Day
June 9, 2004 Walter Day states, "No Replay Necessary" for
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May 20 - 27, 1999 For the masters of early-'80s video games, the two saddest
words in the English language are 'Game Over' by Chris Wright 
